The Klinghoffer Opera at Lincoln Center- Where is everybody?

Frumdoc

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 6:43 pm

Having read several articles and papers, both in praise and critiquing this opera, it certainly seems that it is controversial, and morally ambiguous even to a more neutral observer than most of us.

The use of the historic background for the Palestinian terrorists, establishing their justification using the story of Hagar, the classic but not historically accurate stories of the Jews beating and murdering civilian Arabs to get them out of their homes after the creation of the state, and other antisemitic statements made by the terrorists (and so justified as being consistent with their beliefs), none seem balanced internally by any moral or historical justification of Israel's position, of the use of a non Israeli jew to represent Israel both by the terrorists and by the author, and the deleted scene which seems to balance the politically and destiny driven terrorists with the shallow consumer driven American Jews.

Although some would argue that art has no moral responsibility, and should not be expected to provide any historical accuracy or balanced viewpoint, this is an enormously difficult question. The issue remains, as a piece of art, a performance which takes place in the real world, does it hold any responsibility for the possible consequences of showing it, whatever these might be.

Specific attacks from an opera going crowd are unlikely, although it is interesting to note the the internet broadcast was withdrawn for exactly this stated reason. But a general increase in political anti Israeli sentiment, an audience who goes home believing that the historical rhetoric was more factual, these small nudges in groupthink, towards justifiying anti Israeli terrorists, and consequently antisemitic attacks, these seem to be real enough valid concerns to protest the3 showing of this opera.

We could argue forever about art and whether it should exist in a moral free dimension or whether it carries responsibility beyond expressing a particular viewpoint or story, but in this case, if one does feel that art is not above morality, it seems to have crossed a line here.

I would be fascinated to see if they could replace the subject with one of the recently murdered IS victims, how the general public would respond to the opera, and what kind of moral and political outrage would ensue.

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 9:27 pm

Just wondering what branch of Judaism Clarissa belongs to, and what Clarissa's Rabbi has to say about anyone going to this Opera, in any color dress. The Reform Rabbinate is very against it, as well as Orthodox Rabbis, so perhaps that leaves only the Chassidim who dont care (just kidding, Chassidim prob are not aware of what it is).

But of course what Rabbis say is only important if you put Rabbis before enjoyment at the Opera.

Barbara

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 10:08 pm

Clarissa wrote:

So let me get this straight. You have no idea what I have or haven't read about this opera, how familiar I am, and you're offended because what I've read hasn't made me decide against seeing it? You object to me being willing to see for myself?

Oh, and nobody here has seen the opera and yet they've "injected" themselves into discussions. Or, as I prefer to call it (because I feel no need to attack anyone) they have participated in discussions. Be sure to include a qualifying quiz in the next discussion, though, so you can determine who is free to participate.

So, please tell us what you've looked into and read. Give us some reason for your "doubt" that its offensive.

But since you haven't provided any basis, except to say that you're going to see it, then yes, I am offended by your repeated statements that others who do know what it's about have no right to protest against it.

And no, I haven't seen it. I also haven't seen Deep Throat, but I'm pretty sure it's [filth]. And I haven't read The Protocols of Zion, but I'm pretty sure it's antisemitic. I get to make decisions based on information provided by others.

Clarissa

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 11:10 pm

Let me understand. You expect me to retrace my internet steps and get you links to every article my husband and I have read about the Met, Peter Gelb and "The Death of Klinghoffer," so you can try to one-up me by pulling out articles by angry people? Seriously, why on earth would we need to share links of interviews we've watched and read? To prove to you that we have read about it? Because you don't think we have read about it or discussed it or talked to others about it? Sorry, but I'm not going to start googling to get you links just so you can argue with me. I told you many times I haven't seen the opera and don't know what it's like or what it says. I know what I read in various publications. I know what I saw in taped interviews with Adams. Now I'm planning on deciding for myself if I'm able. Why you care so much about someone else wanting to decide for themselves is beyond me. My husband, a Met subscriber, has decided not to see it but has no problem with me seeing it. And he's my husband, whose opinion I actually respect.

The [filth] example is ridiculous. Deep Throat was marketed as [filth]. This hasn't ben advertised as anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist and I've heard people speaking from both sides of that argument. I'm still waiting to hear from someone who's actually seen it.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:18 pm

I don't know how to tell you people this. It might come as a big shock, but art is controversial and often offensive. And anti-Semitic and bigoted and misogynistic. So unless you are prepared to protest each and every remotely anti-semitic /bigoted/rude opera/movie/book/tv series/musical/painting/exhibition, what is the point?

Further, as Clarissa keeps pointing out, do you not understand that protests just give this performance more exposure and arouse more public interest? You and your protests are DIRECTLY contributing to the opera's success. I don't know how this can be made more clear to you.

Next, you do understand that any situation in which the opera is actually canceled simply reinforces the idea that Jews control the media? Is that something you like to encourage?

Finally, where are the mods? Amother, you are totally out of line and I am going to report every single vile thing you posted. Then I will come back and offend you with my wit and sarcasm.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

Can you share with us the branch of Orthodoxy you belong to that clearly puts stupid protests against using time more wisely such as by baking challah, measuring girls' skirts, teaching your friends about the evils of chalav stam, and encouraging your husband to go learn?

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:27 pm

amother wrote:

Its Clarissa against the likes of

JUDEA PEARL
President,
Daniel Pearl Foundation

and

DAVID HARRIS
Executive Director
American Jewish Committee

............too busy choosing just the perfect dress and accessories, which I strongly think ought to be bright red in commemoration of innocent blood spilled by terrorists, past, present and future.

Can you share with us whether you agree with the above individuals about everything they've written and their personal opinions as well? Please also do also share the particular branches of orthodoxy they belong to. And if, by chance, any of them are atheists? Because you certainly wouldn't want to align yourself with atheists, right? At least not before you check with lor.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

Leon Klinghoffer is turning over in his grave and Clarissa now states she has no idea whether the opera is anti-semitic but wants to see it anyhow, after well known people, take Dov Hikind for one, are recommending people NOT go, and instead come to protests. Ignoring posts and ignoring common sense as well. Toodles. Go with the red dress, Leon Klinghoffer would at least have wanted that his blood not be spilled in vain.

Is it possible for you to argue on the issues instead of with ridiculous ad hominems? If not, please note that it is totally obvious to anyone reading this that you have run out of arguments and are just stuck with your "bloody red dress" arguments that you keep repeating over and over again.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:34 pm

amother wrote:

Just curious if anyone is aware if theres even one politician in NYC (not even Jewish) who is speaking up for the Met and Peter Gelb, to stage the performances as planned, or is encouraging people to see this opera, and the reason that may be.

(I think its because the Opera is soooo widely clearly seen as Anti-Jewish, except by one poster here).

Is it possible that no one gives a **** as to what NYC politicians think? Do you often cite them in arguments, amother?

Barbara

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:46 pm

Clarissa wrote:

No, I don't expect you to list every article you read.

But when you repeatedly state that those who oppose the opera are wrong, and state your belief that any opposition or protest against the opera is wrong, I expect you to do more than state, "I haven't seen it, so I don't know if its anti-semitic." If you don't know, then why are you taking a position on it? And if you have read so much about it, and discussed it at such length, why is your only response "I have no clue whether or not its anti-semitic"?

I really don't care if you decide for yourself. But why do YOU care so much that others have decided for themselves, and are protesting? So much so that, although you claim that you have no idea whether or not its anti-semitic, you've made SIXTEEN posts (yes, I've counted them) arguing against people who do have an opinion.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:51 pm

Barbara wrote:

So you protest nothing.

If you lived in Ferguson, you'd say, "Pheh. Who has the time?"

I admire people who make the time to protest when they see wrong. I don't always have the time. Or the energy.

But I still know right when I see it.

I pick and choose, see? And if I lived in Ferguson, my protests wouldn't result in more cash going into the police department's pockets, see? Because that would be totally counterproductive, see?