The Klinghoffer Opera at Lincoln Center- Where is everybody?

Barbara

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:54 pm

marina wrote:

Lemme see, oh, wait. Because I'm not suggesting people are terrorists for disagreeing with me?

Oh, I don't think that anyone suggested that.

The remarks were offensive, and should be removed, but they don't say that.

But your remarks are downright nasty as well.

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:58 pm

Barbara wrote:

Oh, I don't think that anyone suggested that.

The remarks were offensive, and should be removed, but they don't say that.

But your remarks are downright nasty as well.

That's what she means by suggesting posters she disagrees with wear red clothes - read her comments again.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:58 pm

marina wrote:

I pick and choose, see? And if I lived in Ferguson, my protests wouldn't result in more cash going into the police department's pockets, see? Because that would be totally counterproductive, see?

So you pick and choose. See? But if people pick and choose things that you disagree with, you make fun of them. See? And say nasty things about them. See?

Its a big, wide, world, and people disagree with you. It would be nice if that could be done nicely, in the form of a debate. But instead of making intelligent points, you'd rather be nasty. See? And all that shows me is that you don't have anything intelligent to say. See?

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:59 pm

sequoia wrote:

Me.

Excellent. What did you accomplish?

I'm not trying to be rude to you sequioa (just to amother). I really want to know what the goal was and whether it was achieved. Also what is really the goal here with this protest? Do you think it will be canceled?

marina

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:01 pm

Barbara wrote:

Barbara, you are just jumping in for nothing- I said nothing remotely offensive in response to your comments throughout this thread. I was rude to amother- whom you are standing up for. Uh, I'd rethink that stance if I were you.

And yes, we - even you - all pick and choose and judge those who pick and choose differently. That's the way the world turns.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:21 pm

marina wrote:

I'm not sticking up for the nasty amother.

But the anti-Semitic, or not anti-Semitic, nature of this opera is besides the point. Adams' stated goal was to teach "simplistic Americans" to view terrorists as something other than “evil” or negative. To show that they have a point and, therefore, some justification for their actions.

And THAT is what I oppose.

Because grievances, however legitimate (and in this case, the grievances included are at least in part lies), never justify terrorism.

Because even if the Israeli government were pure evil (and I don't think it is), that doesn't justify hijacking a ship and murdering someone for being a Jew.

Any more than any legitimate grievance against the West can justify the recent beheadings.

Or, dare I say it, any legitimate grievance against the US justified 9/11.

But that's what I hear these days, more and more. Well, Israel (the US) is to blame as well, because if they hadn't ....

NO. Terrorism is wrong. And there was no justification for murdering Klinghofer.

happybeingamom

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:47 pm

Barbara wrote:

Barbara

Thank you for explaining it perfectly!

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 4:05 pm

Barbara wrote:

And the reason that you think that your nasty comments are any better than the anonymous poster's nasty comments are ....?

OP here. So the red dress comment might have been too much, but I am sure Leon Klinghoffer wouldnt want anyone to go to or to stand by idly as this Opera goes on, without at least a rally. Do you think differently, or does the person who the Opera is named after and his family really not count in all of this, and artistic expression of all kinds, including studying terrorism, should reign supreme?

ora_43

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 4:17 pm

emama wrote:

The opera states that they are men with feelings, with ideals and beliefs.

But they are men with feelings, ideals and beliefs. They even love their mothers and help their kids with homework.

See, I can know that, and still hate them for being evil, twisted people who'd kill me if they could.

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 4:22 pm

ora_43 wrote:

1000000000000+

And for certain if the terrorists were able to, theyd happily mutilate and kill all Jewish people including those who will go to see the Opera we speak of!

Does anyone doubt that???????

ora_43

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 4:24 pm

amother wrote:

I submit that choreographing a “nuanced” operatic drama around criminal pathology is not an artistic prerogative, but a blatant betrayal of public trust. We do not stage “nuanced” operas for rapists and child molesters, and we do not compose symphonies for penetrating the minds of ISIS executioners.

Not operas, but - A Clockwork Orange? Lolita?

Assassins? (I mentioned it on the other thread, but it bears mentioning again I think)

I'm not saying this opera is good or terrible or anti-semitic; like I said, I haven't seen it. But whatever it is, it's not the first work of art to try to get viewers into the bad guys' heads (including those of rapists, child molesters, and killers).

ora_43

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 4:44 pm

amother wrote:

I appreciate your support, but I think I was sort of disagreeing with you.

We agree that terrorists are terrible, of course. But my point was that if I, who hate terrorists, would tell anyone who asked me what terrorists are thinking that they have their own ideals, their own beliefs, their own version of history - how can I automatically judge an opera for doing the same?

Don't get me wrong. I don't think "Oh, this is probably all just some big misunderstanding. I'm sure it's a lovely piece of art Music

." It's probably anti-Semitic and blatantly misleading. (I mean, odds were heavily against it just based on the fact that it's an opera about Israel/Palestine issues - all the various quotes and whatnot are just icing on the Israel-hating cake.)

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 5:49 pm

Barbara wrote:

No, I don't expect you to list every article you read.

But when you repeatedly state that those who oppose the opera are wrong, and state your belief that any opposition or protest against the opera is wrong, I expect you to do more than state, "I haven't seen it, so I don't know if its anti-semitic." If you don't know, then why are you taking a position on it? And if you have read so much about it, and discussed it at such length, why is your only response "I have no clue whether or not its anti-semitic"?

I really don't care if you decide for yourself. But why do YOU care so much that others have decided for themselves, and are protesting? So much so that, although you claim that you have no idea whether or not its anti-semitic, you've made SIXTEEN posts (yes, I've counted them) arguing against people who do have an opinion.

I'm not at my computer but I just have to ask if that sixteen includes my responses to comments directed at me, including your own. If I respond to the strident and insulting comments directed at me, I'm a dog with a bone? Really fair, Barbara. I've really tried not to be rude in spite of some obnoxious attacks. You say I've injected myself into these discussions and am wrong saying my take on things. Are you a moderator now? Heaven forbid. Moderating in the world of Barbara means ignoring the ugly amother posts and saying I have no right to participate in the conversation unless I agree with you.

Barbara

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 6:00 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I'm not at my computer but I just have to ask if that sixteen includes my responses to comments directed at me, including your own. If I respond to the strident and insulting comments directed at me, I'm a dog with a bone? Really fair, Barbara. I've really tried not to be rude in spite of some obnoxious attacks. You say I've injected myself into these discussions and am wrong saying my take on things. Are you a moderator now? Heaven forbid. Moderating on the world of Barbara means ignoring the ugly amother posts and saying I have no right to participate in the conversation unless I agree with you.

Ah, I just love it when people cannot respond substantively, and therefore resort to personal attacks on me. I guess your whole point here is that YOU get to say whatever you want, and if anyone DARE respond to you, then, well, they are trying to stop you from having your say.

If you think its productive for you to keep posting that you really don't have any idea what the opera is about, but how dare people protest against it, that's just pure evil, knock yourself out. But its not a very convincing point.

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 6:19 pm

sequoia wrote:

Anyone who goes to see this opera is saying that it was kinda ok to murder Klinghoffer, for the crime of being an American Jew.

Of course, these same opera goers wouldn't want their own husbands murdered, for the same crime.

Seeiously? You're saying that I am saying such a thing? You don't know me better than that?

Frumdoc

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 6:19 pm

Well, I took the time to read about it, view some of it on youtube and consider the multiple points made by various critics both for and against this opera since it was first produced. Rather than wade in in ignorance.

And discussed it on this thread a couple of pages back, with the personal conclusion that it is certainly biased towards promoting the views and actions of the terrorists in a far more positive light than the Jewish victims, and overall has an anti jewish tone which is thinly disguised by attributing it to the terrorist subjects. And I concluded with the (to me, very interesting) question of the moral responsibility of art, something I spent much time discussing in my younger days, old grandma that I apparently am ;-)

Now, my post was pretty poor from a grammatical POV, so the points I was trying to make may not have been so clear, but it seems that no one seems to want to engage with a discussion about the opera itself, it seems preferable to attack each other around the subject matter than actually discuss it directly. Which I find a bit disappointing, but hey, I learned something myself and had a nice brood about artistic licence, so thanks :-)

Anyone who does want to actually discuss it, rather than hurl abuse at one another, please chip in now, or we can start another thread - sequoia, I'd love to hear your views, as I know you are far more knowledgeable about literature and art than I am!