Should we move? | Imamother

amother

Taupe

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 4:54 am

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LisaS

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 5:25 am

Are you and your family overall happy here? Are you thinking to move for financial reasons, or also to be in a community that suits you better?

amother

Taupe

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 5:32 am

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amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 5:51 am

You said your husband has an associate's from a European country. Is he a US citizen? If not it will take you time until he can work there legally (and it's better to do from EY than to try to do it from the states).

What do you do? What type of salary could it bring in? What schools would you be interested in there and how much do they cost? Will your parents buy you a house or help? How much will housing cost you?

I think you need to sit down with real numbers and real options and decide. The streets in America are not paved with gold now. Think about what you want for your kids. Yes, there are things here, but also there. Do you want them to feel bad they don't have the latest ipad or video and 30 chuggim? Are they on an English level to catch up easily in school? How old are they? You might be okay with simple clothing, but if their friends are dressed up nice or going away on chol hamiod trips and you can't afford it, how will they feel. One thing I love about living here is for every family that goes to the US every year and has all the newest and best of everything, there are seveal where a treat for chol hamoid is going out for ice cream and they are a family of 8 in a 3 bedroom apartment.

Amother becasue this is a public board and my mom will kill me if she reads what I wrote about going to the US Wink

amother

Taupe

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 5:59 am

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amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 6:12 am

Amother, I didn't say every kid in the US has an ipad and I certainly know they don't, I'm just saying it's a different lifestyle totally. There is more gashmius there, no doubt about it. As far as a house, you have to decide how much you want to be indebted to your parents and for what. Also don't forget tuition is major. Then the house will have property taxes, utilities, maintenance, and all that fun stuff to pay. The mortgage is just the beginning.

I guess what I'm saying is being poor here, well there are a lot of kids who are sharing a room with a sibling or don't have a chug or wear hand me downs or don't get anything new except for chag. In the states, less so. Also child care is a fortune there as is day school.

For me, there is no question. I want me kids to grow up living Tanach and being Jewish. I want them to see the kanyon decked out for Sukkot, and not the mall OTT in December. I want them to be in the majority and speaking and thinking and praying the words of the Holy Tongue. I love that they sit and learn Rashi IN HEBREW. Not translate it, and then figure out what it might mean. For me these things are priceless. For you, there might be different considerations.

I know more than one person who went back to the US and they get trapped there. They feel they haven't changed, but I can see they have. All the trips, the nice houses and the mini van. From simple people to kids getting used to having their own pool and doing road trips every time there are a few days off of school. And they wonder why they are not getting ahead there either.

There are things I miss about the US. It's so easy to not thave to think about the languge. Public libraries, and yes, even Sunday. But I am here for my kids much more than for myself. It is was for myself I would go back in an instant. But I'm here for my kids. Because this is best for them. Because this is where they grow up Jewish in the Jewish homeland. Because I like seeing the coke bottles telling me shana tova, and not the feeling I had growing up of hating the red & green M&Ms that came out every year. It's teh little things that are priceless.

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 6:16 am

amother wrote:

I love all the things about EY that you said too. It's such a different lifestyle here. But we're worried while it's great for us now, it won't be 10 years from now. And we don't want to move kids when they're older.

I don't think you should worry about what will be 10 years from now. If you need to go, then you will figure out a way to make it work. I know a family that had to make yerida with kids between married (who didn't leave) and baby. All the older ones have come back here, but they needed to do what they needed to do and all their kids are doing just amazing.

grace413

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 6:21 am

Just a few quick thoughts:

1. Does your DH have a green card?
2. You many very well not be influenced by materialism but it's likely that your children will.
3. How many strings will be attached to the financial assistance your parents give you?
4. Check out actual real estate prices + property tax + insurance + utility costs in the area you plan to live in which I assume is West Rogers Park.
5. How will feel about needing tuition assistance?
6. Check out the Jewel weekly ad online to get an idea of grocery costs - they will not have kosher meat prices or cholov yisrael items but it will give you an idea of fruit, veg, tuna, etc.
7. I'm sure you know this but it's really cold there.

catonmylap

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 6:37 am

I think the daily stuff will be hard there too, if you are poor. I don't see grand job prospects for you there and tuition and health care costs will be very high...

you need to look at the hard numbers...

shirachadasha

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 8:56 am

You mentioned two concerns which need to be taken seriously before making big decisions about staying or moving.
1. If your husband has a propensity to become depressed with a low paying job, there is a big chance of that happening regardless of where you are.
2. If you have low iron which makes daily life hard, it will likely be hard in the US too.

I admire you and your husband taking a thoughtful look at your family's needs and I certainly don't want to be a pessimist. I just want to point out certain things that will likely not change unless you address them specifically.

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 10:26 am

I live OOT, not in Chicago, but in a medium-sized frum community. In the past few years, we've had a few families similar to yours move here from EY. Here's how I would describe the different families (all BTs):

--Family A. 1.5 years here. Father very happy because he never felt he fit in to EY chareidi mentality, prefers OOT yeshivish environment where there's more individuality. Mother unhappy because she misses the kedusha and lack of gashmius. Children (oldest was 10 when they moved) found school hard the first year due to language issues, but now have settled in nicely and are happy. Mother says it's hard for her to say this, but chu"l will be a better place to raise her children because they aren't being forced into a narrow mold. There is more flexibility in what is considered okay within the yeshivish world.

--Family B. 6 months here. Father happy because he has better parnassah options here. Mother terribly homesick for EY. Kids are young (oldest is 5), and adapted quickly and are happy.

--Family C. 4 years here. Father and mother both dealt with intense culture shock, terribly homesick for EY for the first two years. They moved because their older sons (preteens and teens) had been abused physically and emotionally by some of their rebbeim in EY, and they saw that their oldest was about to go OTD due to the terrible experiences he had. They put their children in a day school here, which was a huge culture shock from the very very chareidi world they came from, but they had no choice because the more right wing school here doesn't have the resources to help kids who have minimal English. Their kids are doing very well, but are not what I would call chareidi anymore. More like "just plain frum." The son who was in danger of going OTD is modern and a very nice, gentle young man who doesn't want anything to do with the chareidi world but is fully shomer mitzvos. Mother now wears a long shaitel, dramatic makeup, and no socks/tights (when she came she wore a tichel and had a very chareidi look). Parnassah was a huge issue for them in EY and they're much more stable now (husband has a small business), and the lack of financial stress seems to have made them much calmer and happier than when they first came.

--Family D. 2 years here. Father happy because he's learning well, has a good chevrusa (that's the ikkar for him). Mother initially had terrible culture shock, hated the feeling of being surrounded by a non jewish society. Now she's settled in and is content. She says that where they lived in EY (a very solid chareidi community), there was a big problem with teenagers congregating on the street at night, and lots of kids going OTD. The Rabbonim they spoke to said that in OOT America you have much more control over your kids. In EY there's more of a hefker mentality where the kids run all around the neighborhood and you might not know where your kid is for hours. When they're older it can become a real problem. The Rabbonim advised them that in America they would have more ability to keep an eye on their kids and guide them.

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One thing that all the mothers have told me is how lonely they felt when they first moved here. BTs in EY usually have a strong support system of other BTs who become like family to them, and losing that support system is hard. The other thing they all tend to say is that the pace of life here is really different. Many women in chu"l are working full time. BT women in EY are often working only part time, and there's more sitting outside and shmoozing going on, and more shiurim.

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 10:40 am

I'm the amother who was describing the different families who moved here recently. I wanted to add something, which is that I personally went through a very difficult time when I realized my husband didn't want to be in EY. This was a good number of years ago, since I'm quite a bit older than you sound like you are. I went through a depression that lasted a few years, actually, because I'd always felt that I would raise my family in EY, and having to accept that that wasn't going to happen was so hard. What I learned over time is that we as the women set the tone in the home, and we can, with Siyata d'Shamaya, make it the bayis ne'eman of our dreams. If it looks like chu"l is going to work better for your husband or your children, then look for the good you can do there. Are there unaffiliated Jews you can reach out to? Are there organizations or shiurim that you can start in the community? You'll have to work harder to create the sviva you want for your children. It's not in the air they breathe in chu"l. So make your home a home of chesed, of growth, and actively work on doing for Klal Yisroel. And work on building friendships with ladies in your new community, which takes time, but make it a priority. Look for the people who are growth-oriented and inspired. Even if it takes time, they're out there, and you'll find them. Don't just hide away in your home, depressed, like I did for too long. My mother has a little decorative plaque hanging on her kitchen wall, that says "bloom where you're planted." I like that. Smile

amother

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 12:48 pm

A little bit of a different perspective- my parents moved from Bnei Brak to OOT when I was in my lower teens. While my father was managing fine there- he blossomed here and our whole family also did as a result.
School adjustment was hard, the younger the better.
Jobs were easier to get, but being poor here is harder so u have to be willing to work hard till ur iyh comfortable.

being the "one with the dad who works" is a hard place for a child in school and shidduchim etc is hard. its hard for kids to find themselves if theyre family doesnt fit in with their society....

I dont agree with the person who said not to look ahead, it is very important to- my parents had no reason to move at that point but looking to the future they realized that as the family matured our need were different.
I am familiar with more than one case (all in diff stages of life) where they got similar advise; leave before ur unhappy...

It is a very hard question and daas torah should be involved.

OOTBubby

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 1:12 pm

If you mentioned the ages of your kids, I missed it, but that should be considered. Are they fluent in English (including reading & writing)? If not, you'll need to realize tutoring (which also comes at a significant cost) will be needed and if they are already in upper elementary school, they may never fully reach grade level in secular studies (looking at families who have done this). There are though a number of such families in Chicago, and they have succeeded but on the whole they came as families with "money" -- wealthy parents, good jobs, etc.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 05 2014, 1:26 pm

OP, does your husband have american citizenship? You should check that out first.
I have a friend right now who is having major issues because they did not check everything out before they left israel for america and he is not american.

amother

Taupe

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:58 am

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amother

Taupe

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:00 am

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amother

Taupe

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:03 am

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amother

Taupe

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 3:04 am

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amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 7:15 am

Your kids are so young that it's the ideal time to move back, since you won't have tuition to deal with right away, and they won't have school difficulties.

Are you sure Chicago is what you want? It's a very urban environment with lots of traffic and people.