Should we move? | Imamother

finallyamommy

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 7:25 am

I don't think moving to America is a good idea, based on what I've seen of this thread, and I just started a long post to explain why, but I'm worried I'm going to sound like I'm bashing the entire American frum world, which I'm not so keen to do right after YK. OP, PM me if you want.

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 1:39 pm

Quote:

it's the closest to what we wanted. We prefer out in the nature, but we looked at the schools, and the communities, and it was the closest fit.

I think you're setting yourself up for failure if you prefer a simple, non-materialistic, close to nature community, and yet choose to move to Chicago. It just defies logic. You think schools like the ones in Chicago can't be found anywhere else? Have you actually visited any of these communities?

Quote:

I know what you meant without you telling me. Definitely not my style, if I had to stereotype everyone into one group.

Again, forgive my bluntness, but if that's how you feel you shouldn't come. You're not likely to be happy if you have such a biased and naive view of what frum life is like in America.

When I lived in EY people loved to scare me with stories of how much better life in EY's frum communities is. When I moved back they warned me of the low level I would sink to. When I came I realized they were wrong. EY is the best place in the world to live, but that doesn't mean that chu"l is terrible. There are many good communities here, and people who are your "style."

imasinger

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:00 pm

I have no real information to offer, but I just wanted to say that this is one of the most thoughtful (in both senses of the word) threads I have seen in a while. The pros and cons make it clear that this is not an easy decision.

There is a saying, "you take yourself with you wherever you go."

My hunch is that wherever you are, there will be parnassa concerns, you will live simply, you will have to deal with the medical issue, you will have to work to be sure your kids respond to the highest and not the lowest influences in their environment.

One more factor I wonder if you have considered is health care. I am under the impression that costs are higher in the US, and that Obamacare is not as comprehensive as what is available in EY.

I agree that you should consult daas torah.

Hatzlacha with your decision. May you find bracha wherever you go.

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:21 pm

Quote:

we have to choose a very shtark community and really get into the inner-most circle of it, which we totally agree with

What does the "inner-most circle" mean? I'm BT myself (early 40s, became frum 20 years ago, lived in EY and numerous U.S. frum communities), and have never seen BTs accepted into the inner-most circle of a chareidi/yeshivish community unless they were gvirim or the husband was an incredible talmid chacham. My husband and I bH are involved in a lot of things in our community and my husband works closely with the big people in our community, but we're not inner circle, nor do I think we ever will be. It doesn't bother me, but I'm just curious what exactly your Rav meant.

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:26 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

we have to choose a very shtark community and really get into the inner-most circle of it, which we totally agree with

What does the "inner-most circle" mean? I'm BT myself (early 40s, became frum 20 years ago, lived in EY and numerous U.S. frum communities), and have never seen BTs accepted into the inner-most circle of a chareidi/yeshivish community unless they were gvirim or the husband was an incredible talmud chacham. My husband and I bH are involved in a lot of things in our community and my husband works closely with the big people in our community, but we're not inner circle, nor do I think we ever will be. It doesn't bother me, but I'm just curious what exactly your Rav meant.

As close as possible, I think he meant. I mean I doubt our kids will be marrying the rosh yeshiva's kids Wink

But here we're very very closely connected to the (israeli) rav/posek of our neighborhood (almost like family), and he knows another chashuv rav (also israeli) who moved to chicago to open a kollel, and he said he'd give us the 'VIP treatment' there haha. I think what our rav meant though was like to really be with the kollel people and really get into their community, and always be in touch with the biggest rabbanim. To sort of immerse ourselves so we don't lose focus. I know there are plenty of great frum people in america, I'm not chas v'shalom saying that people in america are on a lower madrega - I KNOW that's not true. But we really want to make the effort to not have any yerida if we move.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:27 pm

I haven't read the thread.

If I may be permitted an off-the-cuff reaction, it is that you are nuts.

Chicago is expensive and cooooooooooold.

There are just as many loonies there as where you are.

End of story.

Your using the phrases "we are simple people" and "things are simpler here" clinched my utterly unscientific and unfounded reaction.

Please excuse my silliness.

By all means visit Chicago. That's different. It's an interesting place. Go in the warmer months.

OOTBubby

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:29 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Do you know anything about Chicago's frum community? I'd guess not based on your comments. I'd suggest you read up on the many threads here. Yes, it is cold in the winter, but not particularly more so than NY/NJ. And it has an awful lot going for it. Please don't make these kinds of comments unless you have facts to back them up with.

OOTBubby

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

I know this is your writing style, but it hurts a lot. I posted an honest, open, genuine thread trying to get some help in making a big decision. I don't need to be told that I'm nuts.

If you have something to post, please think twice before hurting someone's feelings.

OP, don't let her get to you. You and I (and the Chicagoans here) all know that she doesn't know what she's talking about.

amother

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:38 pm

Quote:

I think what our rav meant though was like to really be with the kollel people and really get into their community, and always be in touch with the biggest rabbanim.

The mentality is different in chu"l. In most OOT places, most of the kollel families are younger. By the time the men are your husband's age, they start working, unless their families are wealthy or the wife has a great parnassah or the husband is a big talmid chacham. Of course there are many exceptions, but I just want you to be real with what it's like here. The kollel people are generally young, sheltered FFBs who dress alike and think alike (sorry for the huge stereotype! LOL

). The wives will be perfectly nice to you but I don't know that you will really be accepted as one of them, especially as you get older.

I speak from experience, by the way.

Dev80

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:39 pm

I've been enjoying this thread, I think it's been an open an honest discussion about having to do the number crunching and the back and forth about good vs bad about living in both places (b/c every place will have it's pros and cons!)

One thing I may have missed OP is has your husband tried to advance himself career wise here at all? Maybe courses or looking for a better paying job? I'm guessing if you'd move back, even if you have simple needs and some one helps with buying your home, that he will have to do more than being a cashier right? How would he plan to get a better job in the USA? Can he use some of those ideas/skills here? (Not that you have to try and make it work here in EY, it's just between all the expenses that everyone is mentioning you would probably need a real plan before just picking up and moving, right?)

Dev80

Mon, Oct 06 2014, 2:49 pm

We are chareidi and DH is finishing his degree (while still in kollel) but I definitely know it is not the norm but the people we are around do respect it since they realize he is doing it to support his family.

So what kind of thing would he do in America? A trade? Are those jobs easier to come by there? I would just think you need a solid plan about that before going back that's all. I do think in either country you have to work full days to really support a family although here in Israel our tuition is less, healthcare is less, we just may never afford a place we can buy.

Another thing I wanted to know is are there things you can do to make your life a little easier so you don't feel like your shlepping? Like doing mishloach for groceries or even ordering from one of these online markets?

Really lots of hatzlacha with your decision!