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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
RCA rules all Rabbi Freundel conversions still valid
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:32 pm
Barbara wrote:
So if it turn out that your maternal great-great grandmother was a convert, but the beit din was tainted somehow, you think that your great-great grandfather, great-grandfather, etc should all suffer in olam ha'bah because they intermarried. Your husband, too. He should immediately divorce you, and shun your children.

Everything that they thought of themselves. Everything that you thought of yourself. Gone.

These people aren't examples in a textbook. They are real, live people, who have made a commitment in their lives. We need to honor that commitment.


This has nothing to do with what I think, and everything to do with the halachic process. We need to honor what halacha tells us to honor, not sham commitments. Think about how dangerous it is would be if people were told their commitment to Judaism would be honored regardless of the circumstances surrounding their conversion.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:35 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Conversion is a technical halachic process, like everything else in orthodox Judaism . If it later comes to light that at the time of conversion there were serious halachic flaws, even allowing for all possible leniencies, why not revoke? Unfortunately for so many people who get duped by sham batei din, not every conversion is halachically acceptable. I'm not aware of any halachic ruling that states that once someone is converted we are not allowed to look at the circumstances of the conversion and must accept the convert as a full fledged Jew. The consequences for invalid conversion are too serious to gloss over.


What do you think that the "serious" consequences are of this circumstance?

Christina studies halacha. Convinces three rabbis that she really and truly wants to be a Jew. Goes to the mikvah. Now Chana, she lives as a Jew. Shomer Shabbat, shomer mitzvot. But it turns out that one rabbi wasn't quite up to snuff.

What are these dire consequences? D'oraisa, please. If d'rabbanan, please so state.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:39 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
This has nothing to do with what I think, and everything to do with the halachic process. We need to honor what halacha tells us to honor, not sham commitments. Think about how dangerous it is would be if people were told their commitment to Judaism would be honored regardless of the circumstances surrounding their conversion.


Again, tell me about those dangers. D'oraisa, with citations, please.

And while you are at it, tell me why you consider it a "sham commitment." A woman commits to being a Jew. Studies, under one of the few rabbis who is permitted to conduct conversions in the US. Goes to the mikvah. Lives as a Jew. Marries, has children as a Jew.

HER life is a "sham" to you because one of the rabbis films her?

I can't imagine living my life that way. Wondering, every day, if someone is going to challenge my conversion. Or the conversion of my beloved child. It's too horrible to contemplate.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:46 pm
I was not at all referring to the current case. I thought we were discussing a general question: can conversion ever be revoked.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:52 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
I was not at all referring to the current case. I thought we were discussing a general question: can conversion ever be revoked.


I'm not specifically referring to R' Freundel. I'm asking you for sources for these "serious consequences" and "dangers" that you keep referring to, that would require us to re-examine a conversion based upon the actions of one of the rabbis of the beit din.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 2:56 pm
amother wrote:
Do you feel only this way about gerus or also about gittin or other eidus in marriage? I think the halacha is fairly clear that we don't go out of our way to seek trouble and should we, we surely will find creating all sorts of nightmares. When it comes to gerim we are supposed to not terrorize them at the least and it seems to me that continual questioning is exactly that. Do divorcees of "sham batei din" constantly have their children from second marriages questioned? No. Gerrim seem to have to put up with a lot of cr*p.


Interesting.

If R' Yutzstein is found not to have been "kosher" for a conversion, why is he "kosher" for a get? If R' Yutzstein signed your get, and you remarried and had children, why aren't they all mamzers?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:02 pm
Barbara wrote:
I'm not specifically referring to R' Freundel. I'm asking you for sources for these "serious consequences" and "dangers" that you keep referring to, that would require us to re-examine a conversion based upon the actions of one of the rabbis of the beit din.


I never said anything about the actions of one of the rabbis either. But if you want an example- if a rabbi agrees to convert someone in exchange for a hefty sum or her willingness to perform s-xual favors and in fact this woman was not at all committed to Judaism at the time, but wanted to convert for personal reasons- is that something that should be honored?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:05 pm
Barbara wrote:
Again, tell me about those dangers. D'oraisa, with citations, please.

And while you are at it, tell me why you consider it a "sham commitment." A woman commits to being a Jew. Studies, under one of the few rabbis who is permitted to conduct conversions in the US. Goes to the mikvah. Lives as a Jew. Marries, has children as a Jew.

HER life is a "sham" to you because one of the rabbis films her?

I can't imagine living my life that way. Wondering, every day, if someone is going to challenge my conversion. Or the conversion of my beloved child. It's too horrible to contemplate.


Barabara,

I agree with you that it is not fair to those that are totally innocent. What about the woman he was in the process of converting who he took on an overnight train ride to Chicago in a private compartment and he was seen without his yamukah? Should the circumstances of that conversion if there was one, be questioned?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:11 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
I never said anything about the actions of one of the rabbis either. But if you want an example- if a rabbi agrees to convert someone in exchange for a hefty sum or her willingness to perform s-xual favors and in fact this woman was not at all committed to Judaism at the time, but wanted to convert for personal reasons- is that something that should be honored?


You referred to people who were "duped" by "sham batei din," not to people who did not have a genuine commitment to Judaism.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:12 pm
Squishy wrote:
Barabara,

I agree with you that it is not fair to those that are totally innocent. What about the woman he was in the process of converting who he took on an overnight train ride to Chicago in a private compartment and he was seen without his yamukah? Should the circumstances of that conversion if there was one, be questioned?


Sadly Rabbinic abuse of women, Jewish and converts that he oversaw at some level, is nothing new. There was a case in a US city some 25 years ago. I think you let lying dogs lie. Rarely can you open a case against one single person.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:17 pm
Squishy wrote:
Barabara,

I agree with you that it is not fair to those that are totally innocent. What about the woman he was in the process of converting who he took on an overnight train ride to Chicago in a private compartment and he was seen without his yamukah? Should the circumstances of that conversion if there was one, be questioned?


Hey, the RCA found that there was a reasonable explanation for that. Rolling Eyes

Yes. No. Maybe. I don't know.

If I looked for that woman today, and found that she had married a Jewish man. Kept a kosher home, and was shomer mitzvot, that she had a new baby who had a brit milah, my inclination would be to say that no matter how it looked, it was a genuine conversion, and not to cause pain.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:28 pm
Barbara wrote:
You referred to people who were "duped" by "sham batei din," not to people who did not have a genuine commitment to Judaism.


Someone who is not properly informed as to what conversion entails, and subsequently does not have the right intentions when converting, has been duped by a sham bet din.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 3:30 pm
amother wrote:
Sadly Rabbinic abuse of women, Jewish and converts that he oversaw at some level, is nothing new. There was a case in a US city some 25 years ago. I think you let lying dogs lie. Rarely can you open a case against one single person.


What if there were others with a similar fact pattern? It is possible that was not the sole isolated instance? I am not sure if a blanket heter is OK if there were converts who openly participated in wrong doing.
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Bruria




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 4:51 pm
Mishne Torah, Sefer Kedusha, Issurei Biah:

Halacha 17

When a court did not check a [potential] converts background and did not inform him of the mitzvot41 and the punishment for [the failure to observe] the mitzvot and he circumcised himself and immersed in the presence of three ordinary people, he is a convert. Even if it is discovered that he converted for an ulterior motive, since he circumcised himself and converted, he has departed from the category of gentiles and we view him with skepticism until his righteousness is revealed.

Even if afterwards, [the convert] worships false deities, he is like an apostate Jew. [If he] consecrates [a woman,] the consecration is valid,42 and it is a mitzvah to return his lost object.43 For since he immersed himself he became a Jew. For this reason,44Samson and Solomon maintained their wives even though their inner feelings45 were revealed.
As we can see, at least for Rambam it is very difficult if not impossible to invalidate a conversion.
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little_mage




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 6:05 pm
This came up in my facebook, and I thought it was relevant to this discussion. It's by a woman who was converted by Rabbi Freundel. http://blogs.timesofisrael.com.....ghts/
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 7:04 pm
Bruria ,any idea how that idea would apply to those with non halachik conversions by non halachik be is dins? They too aren't informed of what actually needs to be done to be Jewish and toe whatever line they're given, assuming they are Jewish. Yet I know of no halachik body that would consider them so. (Not saying the idea doesn't apply to the current case, but how far can you take it?)
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 7:13 pm
So does it matter if the rav who converts you personally keeps torah and mitzvos?

What if Hildegarde converts under Rabbi Faker and Hinda marries and has a family and later it turns out that Rabbi Faker was always an atheist, hasn't kept shabbos in 20 years and eats out at Mickey D's whenever he can... Is her conversion valid?

What about Delores and Gertrude who converted just last week under Rabbi Faker? Would you have them do it again? Why?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 7:37 pm
marina wrote:
So does it matter if the rav who converts you personally keeps torah and mitzvos?

What if Hildegarde converts under Rabbi Faker and Hinda marries and has a family and later it turns out that Rabbi Faker was always an atheist, hasn't kept shabbos in 20 years and eats out at Mickey D's whenever he can... Is her conversion valid?

What about Delores and Gertrude who converted just last week under Rabbi Faker? Would you have them do it again? Why?


I don't know that anyone would invalidate them off the bat, but depending on the circumstances they may want to be sure that the actual conversion was done khalacha.The rabbi doesn't necessarily need to be a tzaddik, but serious character flaws or religious lapses may indicate that he didn't follow halacha.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 7:42 pm
so if he followed halacha 100% in the geirus but was a total apikorus, that would be ok?

Just trying to understand the parameters
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ROFL




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 7:54 pm
Just a point my sister got married here eidim were not frum. When my bil became more right wing, his rabbi told them to get remarried. ( this was after many kids). They had a new ketuba signed.
But while the accusation made are illegal and immoral, is there any halachic issue with the camera basis Except for not being a yashar person?
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