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Only boys on the bima for kol hanearim?
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:11 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
This has NOTHING to do with fairness. This has to do with the POINT of kol hanearim. This is so that anyone who is able to get an aliyah will, including boys who are not yet bar mitzvah (some of them get real aliyos vs the communal kol hanearim especially as they approach bar mitzvah age). There is no chinuch in girls getting an aliyah; they never will do so as an adult.

Do we also protest batei kohanim not joining their fathers to duchen?

That being said, if a girl is young enough to be on the men's side (e.g. for the hakafos), I would certainly not kick her out. One of my young daughters ran in for kol hanearim (I have no idea if she actually was on the bima, but if she was, I don't care) -- and I just didn't make a big deal about it. She's 4.


You expressed my thoughts very well. Thanks.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:24 am
I'm sorry if my use of the term idiotic offended anyone. I was actually referring to some people in my shul who really irk me in regards to this issue. I didn't say that if you or your shul have this practice it is idiotic. (I don't really care if you do or do not do it, I just don't like it when people paint the issue as unfair. It has nothing to do with fairness, it is traditionally a boys minhag)
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:27 am
the girls who are going up for kol hanearim are all under bat mitzvah. im sure of that. my daughter is 6.
I really dont see the issue with it. and my whole point was that I had never heard of girls not taking part.
now I learned something new.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:28 am
In very "black" settings I've seen only boys.
In more modern settings some/a few of the girls up to 6 or 7 go. This includes the OOT shuls where most come in car and the frummie is in skirt, iykwim.

Growing up (very modern) it never bothered me or otherwise mattered.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:36 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
the girls who are going up for kol hanearim are all under bat mitzvah. im sure of that. my daughter is 6.
I really dont see the issue with it. and my whole point was that I had never heard of girls not taking part.
now I learned something new.


I don't see any issue with it either, so we agree on that
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:38 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
I don't see any issue with it either, so we agree on that
Very Happy
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ronbonboo




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:48 am
Can someone please explain the source for kol hanearim? Let's start there. Where did it come from, what is it? And then argue your beliefs. I went under the talis as a kid and I can't wait for my future kids too.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:58 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
As I'm trying to explain, it is not the practice or custom or tradition in my synagogue, therefore, in my opinion, the fact that they do it is silly.


I would imagine that most people in your shul haven't been davening there since they were born. It may be how it's done where they grew up, or where they used to live, therefore they still put their girls there, even though it's not the custom in your shul.
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mandr




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:05 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I read somewhere else that someone wrote that her boys were up on the bima for kol hanerim, but not the girls.
Is that really done in some shuls? Ive never heard of such an unfair thing in my life.

Life isn't fair and neither is Judaism a matter of fairness. We don't have women Rabbis, and I don't find that unfair. Men don't have certain mitzvos that we women have, and they don't find that unfair.

I don't get why a girl would feel insulted about not being allowed to go in for kol hanarim if the shul didn't have that custom. If I was that girl, I'd feel embarrassed to want to do that. In my Shul, it's just for the boys and I don't recall seeing any girl stamp her foot and yell "It's not fair!"
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:13 am
Raisin wrote:
in our shul they let girls but in more rw shuls I would think its only boys.

But only boys open the aron hakodesh and sing anim zemiros.


I've never been to a shul that didn't have girls on the bima for kol hanearim.

But my daughter does go up with her brothers when they sing adon olam.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:45 am
glutenless wrote:
I would imagine that most people in your shul haven't been davening there since they were born. It may be how it's done where they grew up, or where they used to live, therefore they still put their girls there, even though it's not the custom in your shul.


Nope. That's not it either. Their just trying to feel part of the action. No more, no less.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:53 am
I have never seen girls join Kol Hanearim, though my experience has been limited to RW shuls. I have seen girls being taken under the Talis at Birkas Kohanim. Probably up to about age 6 or so. It was interesting to hear that there are shuls where girls go up to Kol Hanearim. Do they say a Beracha if they are old enough? Sounds like not.

OT My DD is 6 and that's about the age where girls stop going to the men's section in our shul. DH is having a really hard time with this as she's still the youngest and no boys.....she still joined him for Hakafos this year, and though there were plenty of little girls with their fathers, I think she was the oldest. No one said anything. I wonder what will be next year.....
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:55 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
Nope. That's not it either. Their just trying to feel part of the action. No more, no less.

I'm not sure how you know this for a fact about each family, unless if you asked each one and that's what they told you.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:56 am
glutenless wrote:
I'm not sure how you know this for a fact about each family, unless if you asked each one and that's what they told you.


I just do.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:28 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
I just do.


So, let's see. You "just know" that these families don't have a minhag of allowing little girls on the bima for kol hanearim. And because of the fact that you "just know" that, you think its appropriate to repeatedly calling them "idiotic" for allowing their little girls to participate.

Are there other things that you "just know," that permit you to publicly refer to people as "idiotic"?
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:44 am
It's more what makes people comfortable.
I have seen really little girls - toddlers, girls of 3 maybe 4 go up with their fathers for Kol haneorim. But never older around here. Same for hakofes, fathers have little girls of 2, 3, 4 but after that the girls are with the girls in the ladies section. Nebuch the father who has to take his six or seven year old daughter because he has no wife, we have one of those as well and no one says anything when she prefers to be with daddy on yuntif in shul.

But otherwise? Depends ond the shul I would say. The more modern ones would certainly have girls go up, the less modern ones probably don't. Why is anyone surprised about this?
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:47 am
I think girls go in my shul, but not past 6 or 7. I remember the last time I did it. I was 5, and my dangly earring got caught on the suit of the boy I was standing next to and pulled out, which hurt. And I was very upset about losing the earring (though we found it quickly because the boy quickly noticed he had an earring pinned to his suit). Never had an interest in going up again, even though in the shul I grew up in, I definitely could have for several more years (probably till 9 or 10).
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ohmygosh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 12:16 pm
Quote:
Can someone please explain the source for kol hanearim? Let's start there. Where did it come from, what is it? And then argue your beliefs. I went under the talis as a kid and I can't wait for my future kids too.


From what I understand, every male child is supposed to get an aliyah on simchas torah. The boys that are too young to make a bracha for an aliyah go under the tallis for kol haniarim. If there are shuls that want to include girls, and it makes the mommies and the little girls happy, then sure. Just not sure there is necessarily a basis for having the girls go. So I understand shuls that don't have the girls included in this specific process (since girls do not go up for an aliya anyway).
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 12:57 pm
Barbara wrote:
So, let's see. You "just know" that these families don't have a minhag of allowing little girls on the bima for kol hanearim. And because of the fact that you "just know" that, you think its appropriate to repeatedly calling them "idiotic" for allowing their little girls to participate.

Are there other things that you "just know," that permit you to publicly refer to people as "idiotic"?


Relax. I only said I find it idiotic once, not repeatedly.

Also, "allowing your girls to participate in kol haneirim" is not a minhag. It is just allowing them to participate. No more, no less. There is no source for it. For example, G-d willing, one day I hope to have a little girl and she might even go under the Tallis for Kol hanearim, but it still won't be my minhag. It's just something that will happen.

Furthermore, I didn't call these women idiotic for allowing their daughters to go. I called them idiotic for making a whole scene out of it. Big difference.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 1:08 pm
I think we're all too caught up in the strict letter of the law. According to the strict letter of the law females aren't chiyuv in much of anything. So, halacha lmseah, what does that leave us? We can pretty much wiggle out of most of Judaism . But then what's going to make us want to stay Jewish ? Guilt? Social pressure? Indoctrination? There is such a concept of darche darche noam. And this applies equally to both males and females. Never forget that future Jewish generations depend on women not men.
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