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Promoting independence through natural consequences
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redroses




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:38 am
DD is 6 and in 1st grade. She is a lovely lovely child. Bright and sensitive and sweet. Lately I feel my patience with her is wearing thin. I would like to teach her more independence, for example when it comes to HW, brushing her teeth, getting ready on time for the bus, throwing/putting things away... I am trying to instill in her that when she wakes up in the mornign, after modeh ani and negel vasser, she should immediately get dressed, make sure her knapsack is packed, throw her cereal bowl in the garbage. I know that she is capable because she has done it, but I find that I have to ask her repeatedly to do all these things and I am losing my patience. Then there is a mad rush to make it to the bus on time because she gets distracted along the way. Ideally I would love to let her experience the natural consequence of missing the bus because she's not ready on time, or not have snack because she hasn't put it in her knapsack, or have the teacher penalize her for not having done her HW, but I don't know if this is the right way to go. I HATE being the naggy mother but I feel that things will not get done if I leave her alone. Do I allow the natural consequences so she learns independence or do I continue to spoon feed her everything?
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proudmother1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:45 am
redroses wrote:
DD is 6 and in 1st grade. She is a lovely lovely child. Bright and sensitive and sweet. Lately I feel my patience with her is wearing thin. I would like to teach her more independence, for example when it comes to HW, brushing her teeth, getting ready on time for the bus, throwing/putting things away... I am trying to instill in her that when she wakes up in the mornign, after modeh ani and negel vasser, she should immediately get dressed, make sure her knapsack is packed, throw her cereal bowl in the garbage. I know that she is capable because she has done it, but I find that I have to ask her repeatedly to do all these things and I am losing my patience. Then there is a mad rush to make it to the bus on time because she gets distracted along the way. Ideally I would love to let her experience the natural consequence of missing the bus because she's not ready on time, or not have snack because she hasn't put it in her knapsack, or have the teacher penalize her for not having done her HW, but I don't know if this is the right way to go. I HATE being the naggy mother but I feel that things will not get done if I leave her alone. Do I allow the natural consequences so she learns independence or do I continue to spoon feed her everything?


Absolutely.
As long as you are taking the responsibility, there is no need for her to do it.
But don't threaten over and over. Explain it once. And be consistent.
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redroses




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:47 am
Ok, and when she misses the bus, then what? Either she stays home and misses a day, or I have to take her and get to work late
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proudmother1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:50 am
redroses wrote:
Ok, and when she misses the bus, then what? Either she stays home and misses a day, or I have to take her and get to work late


Not all specific situations are immediately fixable. Pick those that will inconvenience her, not you. She will learn.
If missing the bus is the biggest issue, try to think of something creative. You taking her to school is counter-productive.
Perhaps have her stay at a neighbors house, where she doesn't like to be? After one day of that, she will make her bus.
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TobZy77




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:10 pm
How about trying positive reinforcement instead. Make her a list of all the things that she needs to accomplish in the morning ( if she doesn't read yet you can put a picture of the task) . Then tell her that if she does everything on the list by herself, she can get a sticker. After a certain amount of stickers, she gets a prize or a trip with mommy or anything else you think she really wants. It's worth a shot.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:13 pm
Steer a middle ground. Be part of what she does, without completely doing it for her, or being totally directive or in charge.

She is in the middle: she can do things, but she is a child. Little friendly encouragements and participations should be flowing from you to her without judgment. Don't judge "that she should have done xyz".

Praise, too. Hug a little, or stroke her hair. That creates connection, that will make her want to do things.

All the things you are describing are on the way to something else, and should not be viewed as things of high importance in themselves.

If you support a mood of cheerful acceptance, you will get a child who likes waking up, thinks eating is fun, and understands we always make the bus because we are supposed to and we want to.

I warn you solemnly that you cannot make anybody do anything. Really.

With that hidden terror in the back of your mind, remember to make it all a cheerful and pleasant experience.

If it becomes just too darn much, and nothing she does is right, and nobody wants to be with her while she does these morning chores, and production is expected of her without the salary of mommy's encouragement and involvement, she might balk and refuse. That's extreme but it can happen. You really have no weapons against that. So don't allow that to happen.

Enlightened self-interest is a powerful source of wisdom. Your enlightened self-interest here is to motivate.

Participate, support, and share.

In child-rearing, you will be eating your own cooking so be careful.

If you let her just miss the bus, she will have a profound experience of colossal failure and get very upset.

She will quite naturally decide that maybe this is the thing to do. It is more comfortable to fail at home. She may decide missing the bus is the way to go.

She is not doing things because you are doing them, and you do them so much better and faster, and fighting with you is hopeless because you are louder and bigger.

But your role is not so much to back off and let her fail, it is to pleasantly guide and nudge, support, and help a little.

Six is not all that old. If she were nine I would be seeing this differently.

The nagging is clogging her brain. She is shutting out because of too much input.

Try to rejoice you have such a competent child. She is doing a lot.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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proudmother1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:14 pm
TobZy77 wrote:
How about trying positive reinforcement instead. Make her a list of all the things that she needs to accomplish in the morning ( if she doesn't read yet you can put a picture of the task) . Then tell her that if she does everything on the list by herself, she can get a sticker. After a certain amount of stickers, she gets a prize or a trip with mommy or anything else you think she really wants. It's worth a shot.


Good Idea.

But as the mommy of very laid back children I learned (the hard way) that it is vital for children to learn to take responsibility.
These behaviors grow with children.
I don't want to bribe and be indebted to my children forever for every normal daily activity that they do.

I do bribe, don't get me wrong. For big things that don't come up on an every day basis.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:16 pm
Expecting perfect compliance on a daily basis is too much for a child that age. Doing it sometimes doesn't make her capable of doing it always! I would suggest having a chart with all the morning tasks, in order, so she has a visual and will be less likely to forget. Have her put a sticker under each task once it's complete. If the chart is complete before she leaves in the morning, she gets something special (this can be reading her a book or something like that, not necessarily a tangible object).

Also make sure she has enough time to realistically do everything she needs to do. Maybe she needs to wake up earlier.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:18 pm
proudmother1 wrote:
Not all specific situations are immediately fixable. Pick those that will inconvenience her, not you. She will learn.
If missing the bus is the biggest issue, try to think of something creative. You taking her to school is counter-productive.
Perhaps have her stay at a neighbors house, where she doesn't like to be? After one day of that, she will make her bus.


She can send her to school without a late note. That is a natural consequence if her school requires late notes.
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proudmother1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:21 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
Steer a middle ground. Be part of what she does, without completely doing it for her, or being totally directive or in charge.

She is in the middle: she can do things, but she is a child. Little friendly encouragements and participations should be flowing from you to her without judgment. Don't judge "that she should have done xyz".

Praise, too. Hug a little, or stroke her hair. That creates connection, that will make her want to do things.

All the things you are describing are on the way to something else, and should not be viewed as things of high importance in themselves.

If you support a mood of cheerful acceptance, you will get a child who likes waking up, thinks eating is fun, and understands we always make the bus because we are supposed to and we want to.

I warn you solemnly that you cannot make anybody do anything. Really.

With that hidden terror in the back of your mind, remember to make it all a cheerful and pleasant experience.

If it becomes just too darn much, and nothing she does is right, and nobody wants to be with her while she does these morning chores, and production is expected of her without the salary of mommy's encouragement and involvement, she might balk and refuse. That's extreme but it can happen. You really have no weapons against that. So don't allow that to happen.

Enlightened self-interest is a powerful source of wisdom. Your enlightened self-interest here is to motivate.

Participate, support, and share.

In child-rearing, you will be eating your own cooking so be careful.

If you let her just miss the bus, she will have a profound experience of colossal failure and get very upset.

She will quite naturally decide that maybe this is the thing to do. It is more comfortable to fail at home. She may decide missing the bus is the way to go.

She is not doing things because you are. But your role is not so much to back off and let her fail, it is to pleasantly guide and nudge, support, and help a little.

Six is not all that old. If she were nine I would be seeing this differently.

The nagging is clogging her brain. She is shutting out because of too much input.

Try to rejoice you have such a competent child. She is doing a lot.


Not if staying at home is more uncomfortable than getting ready on time.

Children need to learn cause and effect.

Six year old children can learn cause and effect.

By nine years old the bad habits are ingrained and much harder to undo.

I am speaking from experience. As I said before, I am the mommy of VERY laid back children. Not their fault. But still true.


Last edited by proudmother1 on Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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redroses




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:22 pm
Thanks for all your suggestions. She does have a job chart. I still have to remind her to do the things on the chart so it's the same issue. Furthermore, even if she does things on her own she procrastinates and we end up with the mad rush to the bus.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:25 pm
Don't let her experience failure. She will start to get used to it. It happened, didn't it? Failure is now part of her life. Maybe a small part, but a part. I disagree about letting her miss the bus.

She is only six.

Yes: once a child went outside without a coat, without there being any discussions. The child found out it's unpleasant to be cold, got the point of why we wear coats, and then always took the coat, without any discussion.

So, sometimes, yes, you do let experience teach. But that wasn't a social bad consequence, like missing a bus, just a natural one. And it wasn't forty below. Just cold.
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Rutabaga




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:25 pm
I have a daughter the same age as yours. Some things that I have found helpful:

Homework gets done as soon as she gets home. She can have a snack during hw or afterwards if she wants something messy. It's her responsibility to put her HW away in her backpack and put it by the front door.

Prepare as much as possible the night before. DD picks out snacks and her clothing before bedtime.

DD has an alarm clock. If she doesn't get up when it rings then I will remind her how much time she has until the bus. I once threatened that if she wasn't dressed in time that she could go to school in her pajamas and change into her uniform there. She didn't like that idea at all, so she's been better at getting dressed in time ever since. If I find the morning routine takes too long then I set the alarm clock for 10 minutes earlier.

School shoes, backpack, and jacket/coat need to be easily accessible near the front door. Shoes and jacket come off as soon as DD walks in the door and get put in their designated spots so there is no need to go looking for them the next morning. Backpack gets put in its spot after hw.
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SingALong




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:29 pm
I have a child with that personality. She's 10 now and everything takes her time. At age 6, I made her a chart with a similar idea like the one made above.
I put 2 rows of Velcro on a poster hanging in her closet. Title said my morning routine. On the left I attached icons of actions like getting up, washing hands, brushing teeth, getting dressed, eating breakfast, putting on jacket/knapsack, going to bus. As she did each action she was able to move from the left row to right, meaning it's done. And then right away she saw the next thing she needs to do.

Today she still does everything at a relaxed paced but has learned to get ready independently over time. I've oftennaged but it really just took some patience from me and growing up on her part. I think some kids just have that personality...
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:48 pm
I'm all for natural consequences, and making sure the child can keep track of following what needs to be done on the routine/agenda.

I will say I added 2 things that works well for my family. One is a natural consequence, one is a positive incentive.

My kids need to be in school by 8:30. Realistically, that means they need to go to the car at 8:20 because despite being 1.5 minute drive, we have 6 kids to maneuver in their respective car seats and boosters which makes it hard to just jump in and drive.

1. My children must be at the kitchen table by 8:10 if they want oatmeal (which they love). If they are not, they take cereal in a bag. Natural consequence.

2. My children must be going to the car by 8:20 (some of them can't buckle right away while we have to buckle in the littles, so it's not to be in the car by that time). Anyone who does gets a granola bar. Positive incentive.

It works very well for the most part.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:48 pm
With my almost 10 year old, he works very slowly. I tell him he has 15 minutes to get ready in the morning, meaning getting his clothing and getting dressed. If he already has his clothing ready from the night before, I give him 10 minutes. If it takes him less than the alotted time, he gets points of the difference. If he goes over, I take that many points away, the difference. If it's exact, nothing. In the past week and a half, he has almost 70 points. When he gets 100, I'm going to buy him a ball he's been asking for.

Another child (6yr old), he throws fits and yells and screams. I also gave him a point chart, but the points are used in an opposite way. For every time he does it, I count to three to give him a chance to calm down and nothing happens, but if he doesn't, he gets one point. For smaller infractions, in the similar vein, I gave him a point and for every five points of those, he got a major point. He only got five once. I told him before we started that he's starting off with 1 dollar and for ever point, I take away a dime. He got the difference at the end of the week.

I don't like giving rewards for things that they should be doing anyway, but sometimes it needs to be done. For both children, I told them that I'm not doing this forever and the point is to show them that they can do it. I stopped it with the younger child awhile ago and when I see him starting to act up, I remind him that he can stop himself. I of course help him. For the other child, when I stop doing it, I will remind him also. This does not mean none of these things never happend again, but now they realize what they're capable of so it makes it easier for them to fix it.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 12:50 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
Your enlightened self-interest here is to motivate.


Agreed! Who would have thought that Adam Smith gave child-rearing advice?!

I would take it a step further and try to create an environment where your DD learns that if she pushes herself to do less pleasant tasks first, she will then be rewarded in some way.

For example, get her up early enough that, if she dresses and eats breakfast promptly, she will have time to play or engage in a special activity she enjoys before leaving for school. Or have on hand something she especially likes for breakfast for those days when she's dressed and ready on time.

Bear in mind that this is a lengthy process, especially for someone who is a natural dawdler.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 29 2014, 1:04 pm
BTW, here are 2 ideas I heard from Kirk Martin, as incorporated into my lifestyle.

1. Kids do much better in school when they get physical activity and stimulation in the morning. So those who finish getting ready on time will have the "privilege" of extra time for that physical activity, and if they tasted that once, they likely will want to repeat the glorious feeling they had that day. For my son last year, I got a skip it (electronic Twister one which was more fun Wink) and when he rushed to get ready, he had time to use it which really helped make his school day more productive. Positive incentive.

2. Taking away time due to kid being slow/late -- if you have time with them in the evening/alone time, which I do recommend every parent having with every kid at least in the elementary school age, you can take away some of that time because they are causing you to spend extra time with them in the morning. Natural consequence. They need you to take them to school or go to work late or spend more time in the morning with them coaching them through the things they should be capable of doing on their own? Well, they got 5 out of their 10 minutes right then...


Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Thu, Oct 30 2014, 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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curlyhead




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 30 2014, 7:39 am
My kids love to play in the morning and don't get moving. Coming late to school does not bother them but having something yummy for breakfast can help get kids moving in the morning, Such as chocolate milk or a smoothie.
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rosenbal




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 30 2014, 9:40 am
I think positive reinforcement is great! People gave you great ideas here.
If positive reinforcement done right really doesn't wirk, keep in mind that there's a potential here for an ADD diagnosis. If they really want to earn those rewards, but can't get their act together (once you make sure you set them up for success by giving enough time, making it age appropriate , thhe rewards child really wants etc).

I wouldn't rus into this thinking yet but keep it in the back of your mind. I had a sibling like this and a DS like this. Either way, positive reinforcement and learn g good habits is a must for ADHD kids so you're on the right track either way.

So sorry about crazy typing but my smartphone does wierd things on imamother.
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