How could I have handled this differently?

amother

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 8:29 pm

My DS 9 is an extremely challenging child.
He doesn't listen, talks back and whines and complains about everything I say.
In school he's perfect, he just loves to challenge me.

As much as I try to stay calm, from time to time I get so fed up and scream at him like crazy.
I know it's wrong, but don't think you'd be any better. He pulls the string more than to the end.

For the past fewweeks, I worked so hard on myself to be extra calm and friendly to him. I ignore his craziness and just punish him calmly when necessary, totally trying not to get upset.
This night topped it.
He threw one tantrum after the next, ignored whatever I told him to do, and spoke back to me like I'm his dog.

He finally got into bed and kept making loud noises and banging LOUD on the window near his bed.
I stayed calm, asked him once and twice to stop. Asked again. Calmly took away a privilege from him as a punishment, and he just went right on like I don't exist.
I ignored some more, and THEN ITWAS MY TURN TO THROW A TANTRUM Sad

I screamed, he cried, and now I'm mad that he made me break my promise to be better. He literally forced me to do that.

Please tell me how to handle this next times? This will happen again tomorrow and the day after and every day.

As I'm writing he's still banging on the window and making noises. Now I will just ignore until he gets tired of it.
I need advice and ideas please!

all is good

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 8:53 pm

First off, lots of hugs! Secondly, give yourself a huge pat on the back for all your successful efforts these past weeks. Then, remember were all human and we all slip up. I have been in ur boat too, in terms of working on myself and how to handle my children w/o losing it. I also feel absolutely terrible after I lose it and theres screaming and crying....and sometimes I feel like I cant get back to being a calm mother again. But tomorrow is a new day and we have a fresh chance to start over.
As for advice: remove yourself from the situation that is triggering you if possible. Go to your room, read for 5 min/play a game on ur phone/ whatever it is that makes you calm down and gives you a break. When u feel ready, go back & try again. Even better, is your husband able to take over for you when things get too much?
In my humble opinion, even though its hard, its probably best in this situation to ignore him totally. Every time u ask him to stop, only makes him want to do it more to irritate u more, no matter what u punish him with...if he sees ur totally unfazed he shld stop.

marina

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 9:28 pm

we try to use the check system. You lose a check for whining, fighting, or not following directions. Three lost checks is nothing, fourth one is dessert, fifth is rest of screen time for the day, and sixth is grounding for that day. Any misbehavior afterwards is automatic grounding the next day.

It was challenging to implement, but it works pretty well even with my most difficult child. We had a few week-long groundings, but now hardly anyone ever loses dessert.

Part of making it work is trying to be as calm as possible and giving the child a break between checks. in other words, you can't yell, you can't tantrum, you can't just pile the checks on within 5 minutes. You have to give the kid a chance to save face, a chance to calm down. Good luck!

dr. pepper

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 9:39 pm

marina wrote:

Just curious, is this from "The Well Behaved Child' by John Rosemond?
I loved his book....I thought is was a great breath of fresh air in our super "let's be best friends with our kids" era of parenting.
For the record, I"m a huge Rebt. Spetner fan as well.
I really love all the stuff out there. I think there's something for everyone and there's always a new insight I enjoy.

granolamom

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 10:11 pm

lots of big hugs to you! I know what its like to have this sort of challenge, and its no picnic.
I highly recommend reading 'the explosive child' even though from your description he doesnt sound like the exact type of kid it was written for. I just think a change in mindset might be helpful. for example, (and I know many people will disagree so just take what resonates and ignore me if you think I'm nuts all I can say is that this worked for me) stop telling him what to do. aside from the very few non negotiables, dont give him the opportunity to disobey you or ignore a request. that's for the not listening.
talking back, I say to either ignore it or calmly say 'not ok' and go into another room. he's pushing your buttons, he wants to get a rise out of you, dont reward him with your anger.
about the complaints, again, you have to train yourself to not take it personally. I dont think you have to respond to every single complaint. I've given one of my kids a daily complaint-limit, after that, he's got to write them down or I ignore them. or respond with 'the complaint dept is now closed' over and over. the tricky thing is that as you ignore, he will escalate to get the response. I know how it goes, you ignore for so long and then being human eventually cannot do it anymore and he wins. so go take a shower. or if you have little ones, take them into your room, lock the door and read a book. then when you come out, act like nothing happened. like put a smile on and ask him if he has any dinner requests for tomorrow night or something. anything to continue on with him as if all is normal. give him attention and power when and where he should have it. he's looking for something with this behavior, he's not evil or trying to make you miserable. he's a kid who doesnt know how to express some unfilled need (not that you are at fault, some kids come with over-the-top-hard-to-fill needs and its very very hard to parent these kids).
you also deserve (and need) some downtime, respite and lots of irl support. this kind of dynamic can wreak havoc on your self esteem and really be very draining.
the good news is, that my kid who was like this has matured out of it, I mean he is still temperamentally challenging but this thing that you describe doesnt happen here much at all anymore. so there is hope!

granolamom

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 10:37 pm

amother wrote:

Granolamom, I appreciate you response because you seemed to have described my child.
I actually do ignore most of his complaints, outburst, and Chutzpah. I try to make believe I don't realize or hear them.

I also know that I can't give him any orders other than things he absolutely must do like bathing and going to sleep and going to school etc.

He has a good heart, he's extremely sensitive to others, but he just loves to prove to mom what BAD means!

you asked 'how could I have handled this differently?' right? one thing would have been not to ask him to stop banging. the next thing would have been not to ask again and again. and then the next thing would have been no to punish him for ...what exactly? the banging or the not listening to you? in my experience, with a child like this, punishment for not listening NEVER WORKS. and I'm not sure, in the scheme of things, banging is worth punishing. but you know this. so it was just a bad day, give yourself a hug or a cup of hot chocolate and move on. tomorrow's a new day Smile

and I dont think he's out to prove to you what bad means. maybe he's letting out the steam from keeping it together all day long, maybe he's dumping his stress on you. maybe he's testing to see how you respond when he behaves badly, maybe he wants connection and isnt sure how to get it anymore (life was easier when all he had to do was climb up on your lap but that's no longer what he wants but maybe it is and oh that's confusing)

the world's best mom

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:01 pm

I think this child is craving calm, consistent discipline. He is begging for it.

You need to come up with a plan that you like. Marina's plan sounds good- you can tweak it to fit your family's needs.

Next, you need to stop worrying about his reaction to consequences. If he says he doesn't care about losing dessert, he is really not saying anything about dessert at all. He is really trying to say, "So you gave me a consequence that sounds good, but I bet I can make it backfire by pretending not to care." Same with any tantrums he throws after receiving consequences. Do not let his reactions stop you from giving consequences, because then you're letting him win the power struggle.

So if you give a consequence, how should you respond to his response?

If he says he doesn't care, just say, "That's fine. You don't have to care. This is the consequence I'm giving you in any case."

If he screams and yells, I would send him to bed. I tell my kids something like this: "Nine year olds are old enough to know how to talk without screaming. All of this screaming is giving me a headache, so I cannot tolerate it here. If you feel a need to scream, you go do it in bed. You are welcome to come out of bed as soon as you are ready to speak to me in a pleasant voice." My children know that I will not respond to their words until I am satisfied with their tone of voice.

If he is banging on the window and refusing to stop, he needs a consequence. It must be enforced. He is a bit old for this- if you had been totally consistent in enforcing your commands from the time he was a toddler, there's a good chance he wouldn't be testing you now. However, you can still enforce it by only giving him enforceable consequences. For example, you should not be telling him that since he didn't stop banging he has to go upstairs, unless you are physically able to carry him up to where he needs to be. You might tell him instead to move to a corner of the room that is not near any windows, and you can help direct him there if he won't go by himself.

I want to add that anything can become a consequence if you say it is. If he is in bed while banging on the window, the consequence can be that he has to come out of bed to sit in a corner. Other times, going into bed can be the consequence. It doesn't matter that last time the opposite was a consequence.

On a different note, but also extremely important: Make sure that you spend lots of quality time with him. Praise him every time he behaves well. Positive reinforcement and praise tend to accomplish a whole lot that cannot be accomplished through harshness. Maybe a program for rewarding good behavior can help. Play with him and compliment his behavior while playing. Take him out and enjoy the time you spend together- put your phone away and focus on him. Let him enjoy being the recipient of your undivided attention. Do this at least once a week.

granolamom

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:18 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

If he is banging on the window and refusing to stop, he needs a consequence. It must be enforced. He is a bit old for this- if you had been totally consistent in enforcing your commands from the time he was a toddler, there's a good chance he wouldn't be testing you now.

for the most part, the worlds best mom, you gave great advice that works well with most kids.
with my kid like OP's, it would not. even if a mother is 100% consistent in 'enforcing commands' from toddlerhood, it would not necessarily prevent this sort of misbehavior. some kids are wired differently and do not respond typically to typical parenting techniques.

what would have happened when my kid was 9 would be the banging incident, I give a consequence. he refuses to go to his room/whatever it is. so I have to figure out how to enforce it. good luck physically 'directing' a kid like this to a corner. its a joke. usually what would end up happening would be a consequence to enforce the consequence which would set off another round of misbehavior, escalating with each round until I would be totally exhausted and not even sure what I was attempting to accomplish with all of this. with my other kids, yeah, its 'I cannot help you while you are talking to me with a raised voice' and they stop hollering. typical. doesnt happen with some kids though. again, my advice is not for everyone, but it was a peaceful way for me to regain my own dignity and sidestep tantrums. at some point (when dignity is restored) you can start addressing the issue of teaching the child to get his needs met in a more adaptive, age appropriate manner. you've got to show the child that youre on his side before you can do that though.

amother

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:44 pm

Oh boy it's not easy I understand where your coming from. As a mother of 4 boys all grown by now b"h & went through my share of these situation I can tell you one thing , that if you don't catch it by the tail right now you will be suffering from him a long time especially when he gets to his teens , you have to get to a situation where you put your foot down and don't give in to him, kids are very smart and know just how to press our buttons ,they are expert in manipulating our thoughts and getting their way no matter what and it seems like you son with his tantrims is using it to get the attention he wants even if it is negative attention from you, banging on the window is one of the ways , now how do you deal with it ?
Firstly I suggest you take up some parenting classes I did it when my kids were little and it helped me a lot to deal with different situations.
I sujest that tomorrow when your son is calmer and in a better mood you sit with hi and have a little talk tell him that you love him very much but there are a few things that need to change and that you want take anymore from him and that's his bad bihaviour his tantrums his banging on the window deliberately , tell hi. That from now on if he has a tantrism he will have to go to his room and stay there till he calms down ,you will not talk to him unless he talks to you with respect and if he still continues to act that way he will be punished for example you will take away something that he loves like a computer ,tv etc and you have to stick to your word , and if he behaves well he will get a prize, It will be difficult at the beginning but you have to stick to your guns , don't budge to anything, when your son sees that you stick to your word and will not stand to his behavior he I'll see that it is not getting him to any place , he will stop eventually, but if you react every time he has a temptrim he knows he can get what he wants he will continue, so be strong with him show him that you are the adult and that you won't stand to any bad behavior towards you,,good luck.

chani8

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 4:31 am

You're taking everything he does personally. "He spoke to me like I'm his dog"??? With thoughts and judgments like that, you're bound to get yourself crazy angry.

You are his mommy. He wants your attention and love. He is stuck in a self-destructive loop, trying to say, "Love me," but instead saying the opposite by his behaviors. He can't help it, he won't change on his own. You have to change you, and being passive, not-reacting, isn't the solution here. He needs active undivided loving attention.

If you've tried being loving on a continuous basis, but he's rejected you over and over again, then maybe there is something outside of your relationship that is upsetting him and he's resenting you for not helping him.

the world's best mom

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 7:16 am

granolamom wrote:

I disagree.

a- I have a child with special needs who was extremely out of control until he turned 6. I was consistent anyway and enforced consequences anyway. I wasn't doing it so that he'll become an angel today. I wasn't doing it to show him that from this minute on, he better not ever misbehave again. I was doing it to have a long term effect- eventually, after 1,000 time outs, he will finally realize your point. It only works after you've settled into a routine of effective discipline. Yes he screamed and yelled and kicked the wall when I put him in time out. The two minutes of time out time out begin when he is quiet though.

b-If you are not physically able to escort your child to the corner, then it's not the right consequence for him. My point was to use something enforceable, not to use that example. Withholding privileges is easier to enforce, but won't always be immediate. You need to have ideas for immediate enforceable consequences for when you need a child to listen right now.

If you are giving another consequence as a threat for not following the first one, then you've chosen the wrong consequence in the first place. You should bot be piling on the consequences like that- just give one doable one and stick with it. Again, any little thing can become a consequence. For the kid banging on the window, the consequence could be that you need to move his bed away from the window so he can't reach the window anymore. Not a punishment, but just a way of removing him from the situation.

Or he could earn a prize after laying quietly for 10 minutes. Use your imagination.

But as Chani8 said, without tons of love and positive attention, none of this will work at all.