This American Life episode about Hasidic takeover of Ramapo

DrMom

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:54 am

Peanut2 wrote:

Why would it cost more to offer diverse classes? This isn't a Jewish school with 24 or 14 or even 40 kids in a grade. How big is the school district? How many kids in a class? I read through it and it was not a large list of classes, except for some non-language electives. This is the course list and from my experience in life these are all potential classes offered, though not all are necessarily offered every year/semester.
It definitely came across that it's a bad district/school. (Good public high schools offer a lot more AP's and lots and lots more languages.)

But yes, this whole ESL thing came off weird.

Their approach demands that they hire teachers who can teach in the languages their students speak. Judging from the letters to parents on the HS website, that means they need teachers who can teach math and history and English in English, Spanish, French, Creole, and Yiddish. That's a lot of teachers! Think of how much money is invested in catering to all these different language groups. As opposed to hiring a few people to help students get up to speed in English by helping them with classwork that is taught in English.

DrMom

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:00 am

Barbara wrote:

GENUINE QUESTION:

People have suggested that many voters in the area don't have access to the secular press, and vote for teh school board based upon the recommendations of their religious (or civic) leaders. Is that also the case with respect to the school budget?

I just want to remind people that NY caps property tax increases for schools at 2% unless there is approval by a super-majority, which appears nearly impossible to get everywhere in NY. http://www.osc.state.ny.us/localgov/realprop/
So, at least at this point, large property tax increases for schools just aren't happening for anyone.

I think the radio webcast implied that t6here was block voting occurring for the school budget as well.

Question: In the radio webcast, they mentioned that the Ramapo school budget increased 35% over the past 10 (I think it was 10...) years. [They said this may sound huge, but actually most school districts increase their budget by ~50% over the same time period.] Doesn't their budget come primarily from property taxes? If so, how do they increase their budgets so drastically if property taxes can only increase modestly?

DrMom

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:34 am

I've been reading a lot about this topic since the thread was introduced.

From what I've read so far, it seems that even if the board members are operating within the law, they certainly give the impression they don't care one whit about the local public schools.

1. They fired of the board's long-time lawyer and hiring of this expensive and controversial lawfirm which specializes in obtaining public funds for special-needs private students, and which caused much friction in Lawrence, NY (5 Towns). According to what I've read, this particular lawyer (the foul-mouthed fellow) regularly treats parents with open contempt. If the school board wants to maintain good relations with the parents, they would get rid of this lawyer, but they haven't.

2. There was a negotiator brought in to try to ease tensions between the parents and the board. The board said: Why should we negotiate? We have all the power!

3. The regularly board invokes its power to meet in "executive sessions" at public school board meetings. Meaning, in the middle of a controversial open forum with parents, they suddenly go behind closed doors for hours in private meetings, leaving the attending parents out of the loop. They will stay there until 1am and just wait for the parents to leave so they will not have to take their input into account.

So maybe the budget cuts were necessary, maybe this board did introduce much-needed fiscal responsibility -- I don't really know. But they do absolutely zero to engender good relations with their constituents. And they openly say that this does not concern them. That's really disgusting, and I am not surprised that parents are enraged.

I do not know if there is anything that can be done at the State level to correct this situation, or all non-Orthodox families will simply be driven out of E Ramapo.

In short, I don't know that anything the school board is doing is illegal, but I can imagine the impact it has had on opinions about Orthodox Jews. Can you imagine how other Orthodox Jews will be received by the residents when they move into a new neighborhood?

I'd love links to articles from the board's perspective.

33055

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:22 am

[ quote= "DrMom "]I've been reading a lot .about this topic since the thread was introduced.

From what I've read so far, it seems that even if the board members are operating within the law, they certainly give the impression they don't care one whit about the local public schools.

1. They fired of the board's long-time lawyer and hiring of this expensive and controversial lawfirm which specializes in obtaining public funds for special-needs private students, and which caused much friction in Lawrence, NY (5 Towns). According to what I've read, this particular lawyer (the foul-mouthed fellow) regularly treats parents with open contempt. If the school board wants to maintain good relations with the parents, they would get rid of this lawyer, but they haven't.

2. There was a negotiator brought in to try to ease tensions between the parents and the board. The board said: Why should we negotiate? We have all the power!

3. The regularly board invokes its power to meet in "executive sessions" at public school board meetings. Meaning, in the middle of a controversial open forum with parents, they suddenly go behind closed doors for hours in private meetings, leaving the attending parents out of the loop. They will stay there until 1am and just wait for the parents to leave so they will not have to take their input into account.

So maybe the budget cuts were necessary, maybe this board did introduce much-needed fiscal responsibility -- I don't really know. But they do absolutely zero to engender good relations with their constituents. And they openly say that this does not concern them. That's really disgusting, and I am not surprised that parents are enraged.

I do not know if there is anything that can be done at the State level to correct this situation, or all non-Orthodox families will simply be driven out of E Ramapo.

In short, I don't know that anything the school board is doing is illegal, but I can imagine the impact it has had on opinions about Orthodox Jews. Can you imagine how other Orthodox Jews will be received by the residents when they move into a new neighborhood?

I'd love links to articles from the board's perspective.[/quote]

Fairly or unfairly the blame for East Ramapo is falls on the hassidim. Only the Yiddish speaking children need yiddish speaking special ed, etc. Regular orthodox people are not tarred by the actions of the Hassidim at least in Orange and Rockland Counties. There already are publicized hostile actions when the hassidim attempt to move into different
Areas.

It looks like special interests within the community asserted their will in regards to the school board.

The first budget the board proposed was defeated. There was a concerted effort by the community to defeat the current school budget. I received robo calls and letters from the principals of my children's schools. There were vans blaring in English and Yiddish about holding down taxes. There were various directives in the local papers and posted in shuls. Offers of rides to the poll were made to me by a volunteer group. There were the usual mailings and signs.

There wasn't this effort when the revised budget was presented. There was some opposition but nothing like the original effort. That budget passed. Perhaps the lack of organized opposition meant there was something in the austerity budget they wanted to avoid.

I agree with you the should treat the parents with respect and dignity. I can understand the executive sessions though. I have attended enough planning board meetings when the community is hostile and no work can get done. If the board went into executive sessions to avoid transparency then that is ti be condemned. If they did it because the crowd was out of control like at the meetings I attended then it is understandable.

The message that is sent out to the community is one of fiscal responsibility rather than promoting paying for yeshivas for yiddish speaking students. When I first heard the charges I investigated because I don't want to pay anymore than I already pay to support other children's tuitions. Right now I pay about $10,000 a year for other children. The private placement of the children in Monroe was not more expensive than the alternatives that existed at that time. Anyway now the district opened their own school. Many people are struggling to pay their bills and the prospect of holding down school taxes is appealing.

My phone is acting up. I can't correct typos. Sorry

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:45 am

DrMom wrote:

I won't excuse the boards behavior at all and I don't want it to seem like I am doing that. Full stop. What I say now, is a bit of background that might make you understand that relationships between Orthodox Jews and Non-Orthodox/Non-Jews has been building.

Ramapo is a town. Inside the town, there are areas that have been incorporated into villages. Many of those villages were formed specifically to KEEP ORTHODOX JEWS OUT. In the 1950s and 1960s, Ramapo was a sleepy little suburban white town with many non-Orthodox Jews and other non-Jews. In the 1970s, Orthodox Jews began moving in large quantities to Ramapo. The locals didn't like that because the Orthodox Jews were more secluded. It also changed the public schools - less middle class suburban kids were attending, more poor kids from Spring Valley (which has a huge crime problem). As the years went on, Orthodox Jews spread throughout all of Ramapo. As there were more Orthodox people, more Orthodox (or orthodox supported) candidates were elected. The larger vote blocs allowed them to change zoning laws (like multiple family dwellings in areas that were formerly single family) and essentially get a hold of the government. This problem is not limited to just the school board.

Again, this is from my perspective growing up in the area. My mother worked for local politicians, so I grew up knowing of the tensions. My mother never treated anyone "inferior" because of who they were and she crossed many boundaries to help others.

I also want to bring up the point that many of the voters don't even value a secular education for themselves, so having a basic education is well beyond what they even care about. (not that it makes it right)

Given the way Orthodox Jews have spread out in Ramapo, I'm surprised there are even 8000 public school students. I'm wondering if it would be better for everyone if they could outsource education to the nearby towns, which have a far superior (rated 8 or 9 out of 10) and cheaper (by thousands per student) schools. The town would pay the other school districts and it's not a far commute at all.

33055

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:25 am

[quote= "Clarissa"]Quote: There were various directives in the local papers and posted in shuls.

Any shul or religious institution that gets involved in anything political should lose their tax-exempt status. If people are worried about their tax dollars, they should take comfort in this, as that will mean more money will be paid in taxes by churches and synagogues, and will help the community. Having notices up and driving around encouraging people to vote one way or another means they’re getting involved in politics.[/quote]
Just to be clear the only Letters and calls came from the principals of the schools. There is nothing that states that the Rabbis acting in a different capacity than pulpit Rabbis can't get involved in politics although it is hard to differentiate when they are wearing which hat. They do lend their authority and prestige to their cause. You would effectively disenfranchise religious leaders of all sects from the political process even when not acting as a religious leader.

I saw something yesterday that was interesting at the polls. There was a sample ballot in yiddish purporting to explain the voting process, but all the democratic candidates were the ones voted for. I found this on the table when I was filling in my ballot. I have seen similar papers in Spring Valley in Spanish.

BTW the Christian churches in Spring Valley are organizing the parents of public school children.

33055

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:46 am

saw50st8 wrote:

It is an interesting idea to bus them somewhere else. The problem is no one would want these students. There would be the same issues as Yonkers faced. These students are more expensive to educate because of ESL and the lack of support at home. The other problem is these students have social issues. To be blunt they have behavior issues. They don't have the same values as the surrounding areas. To have a good school district you need proper schools but the student population is also important.

33055

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 9:03 am

Clarissa wrote:

I’m referring to the comment about things being said and done (“posted”) in shuls. And pulpit rabbis need to stay quiet no matter what hat they’re wearing. They represent a synagogue even when they’re not standing in it. You don’t manipulate shul or church-goers using your religious authority or your church or synagogue should lose tax-exempt status.

I think people should celebrate this. Think of all of the tax dollars communities would make if the churches and synagogues lost this status? They could fix the schools.

NYC tried get the tax exempt status changed on church owned properties in the 60s and 70s. Buildings like The Chrysler Building are tax exempt as are 20% of the property in Manhattan. The handwriting was on the wall way back then before the fiscal crises of 75 when they came to the brink of default. The Chrysler Building is obviously far removed from church business. It was tried in the courts and the city lost.

There are probably 250 shuls in Monsey besides all the schools and other religious non profits. The religious life is too well entrenched here. You have a community that is used to asking the Rabbi to run their life. If the Rabbi is deciding who you marry and if you will have another child, it is natural to look for guidance in civic matters of which you have no knowledge. You would be shocked at some of the trivial questions the Rabbis decide here. There is even probably something in halacha that allows the Rabbi that authority.