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This American Life episode about Hasidic takeover of Ramapo
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:14 am
Squishy wrote:
All the behaviors that lead to high dropout rates. There is a different culture and different values which certainly isn't their fault.


In 2007, a couple of years after the current school board was elected (meaning that the students were largely educated in schools run by the previous Board), Ramapo High School had a 75% graduation rate with Regents Diplomas; 43 % of graduates went on to attend a four-year institution and another 43% to attend a two-year institution; this is well above the NY state average.

The graduation rate has now dropped below 70%, while the current head of the Board talks about instituting alternative programs for immigrants because all they really want is free food and some English skills before they drop out anyway.

Have the "culture" and "values" really changed so much in just 7 years? And what are these "culture" and "values"?

ETA:

Before the current Board took over, Spring Valley High School was named one of the best high schools in the US for 5 straight years by Newsweek. It now has a 25% dropout rate, and only about 1/3 of those who do graduate go on to four-year colleges.


Last edited by Barbara on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:49 am
Barbara wrote:
In 2007, a couple of years after the current school board was elected (meaning that the students were largely educated in schools run by the previous Board), Ramapo High School had a 75% graduation rate with Regents Diplomas; 43 % of graduates went on to attend a four-year institution and another 43% to attend a two-year institution; this is well above the NY state average.

The graduation rate has now dropped below 70%, while the current head of the Board talks about instituting alternative programs for immigrants because all they really want is free food and some English skills before they drop out anyway.

Have the "culture" and "values" really changed so much in just 7 years? And what are these "culture" and "values"?


Neighbourhoods change. For many reasons. My father attended a Grammar school in East London in the 50s that was one of the top schools in the country. Graduates include many prominent people. But then most of the Jewish population moved to other areas of London, leaving only ultra orthodox Jews and Chassidim who sent only to Jewish schools. Non Jewish schools in the area got worse and worse. My fathers school closed it got so bad. Recently the local council was very happy to give state aid to many of the Jewish schools so that they would appear to be doing a better job of educating their citizens.

Now, I'm sure the schools didn't turn terrible in a day. But I can easily see the drop out rate slowly decreasing by 5% or so every 10 years.

Maybe it is due to the boards actions, maybe there are other factors at play, like house values, the job market, the recession in 2008 etc etc. More likely it is a combination of many factors.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:03 pm
I’m sorry, I’m stuck on this “different values” thing. Different circumstances and different opportunities (or lack thereof) do not equal different values.

Makes me think that there are people here who don’t interact, I mean really interact, with non-Jewish people who are poor.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 6:02 pm
Barbara wrote:
In 2007, a couple of years after the current school board was elected (meaning that the students were largely educated in schools run by the previous Board), Ramapo High School had a 75% graduation rate with Regents Diplomas; 43 % of graduates went on to attend a four-year institution and another 43% to attend a two-year institution; this is well above the NY state average.

The graduation rate has now dropped below 70%, while the current head of the Board talks about instituting alternative programs for immigrants because all they really want is free food and some English skills before they drop out anyway.

Have the "culture" and "values" really changed so much in just 7 years? And what are these "culture" and "values"?


In the last 7 years my block went from 3 frum families who sent their kids to private schools. Now my block is 100% frum with 13 families sending to private school. There were blacks, divorcees and a never married mom. All the families on my block are 2 parent families. That's pretty radical.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 6:09 pm
Clarissa wrote:
I’m sorry, I’m stuck on this “different values” thing. Different circumstances and different opportunities (or lack thereof) do not equal different values.

Makes me think that there are people here who don’t interact, I mean really interact, with non-Jewish people who are poor.


There are definitely people here who don't interact with non Jewish people no matter their income status.

One example of different values and attitudes is premarital zex. This is bad in the frum community. This is no biggie in the immigrant community. The girls get married the first time as virgins in the frum community. The other community has many out of wedlock babies. I don't know any frum baby daddies. I wouldn't want my teens exposed to secular ideas of dating.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 6:16 pm
Squishy wrote:
In the last 7 years my block went from 3 frum families who sent their kids to private schools. Now my block is 100% frum with 13 families sending to private school. There were blacks, divorcees and a never married mom. All the families on my block are 2 parent families. That's pretty radical.


Can you explain why that would affect the drop-out rate at Monsey public schools.

Also, are there no frum divorced people in Monsey? Do you believe that divorced people have different values and mores than married people? By way of example only, if a frum woman leaves her husband because of abuse, does she no longer share the values and mores of the frum community? What if her husband dies? Would a widow living on your block adversely impact upon its collective morals and mores?

Do you believe that black people, in general, have different values vis a vis education than white people? I should note that I attended a high school that was about 40% to 45% black, 40% to 45% white, and the rest Asian, Hispanic and Native American. We had close to 100% graduation rate, and over 90% going to 4-year colleges after graduation (with the remaining few going into the armed forces). So I guess I don't see it.
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wispalover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 6:24 pm
Sorry- I haven't read through the whole thread, but is it similar to the Ami article from several weeks ago about how frum male Jews are controlling school boards in Lawrence, East Ramapo, Clarkstown, Monroe etc?

If so, as a parent of a child who is in public school, I was disgusted. If your child does not go to public school why should you be on the public school board? Why would you want to be on the public school school board? The more these men prevaricated about how "of course they didn't use any of the public funding, especially because their Rabbis would never let them engage in anything illegal or immoral" the more convinced I was of shady dealings... Maybe I am being harsh, but that is how the article came across.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:00 pm
In my experience, the children of immigrants, or children who are immigrants, no matter where they come from, what religion they are or the color of their skin, are extremely keen on bettering themselves and improving their opportunities through education, and many move to countries where they have the ability to do that. Migration for the sake of improving their children's futures.

It is not the same as the stereotypical inner city hopelessness that is born in drug abuse and welfare and sees the high levels of prostitution and teen pregnancy. That takes at least a generation or two of learned helplessness and failure to set in.

The vast majority of migrants have fled from hopelessness and violence/ drugs or extreme poverty and are hugely motivated to achieve highly in education and financially.

It is a myth that they want only free food and some basic English classes, and reflects nothing but the innate prejudices of the board members or supporters who come out with such xenophobic nonsense.

If the non jewish community leaders started publicising that all the local chassidish jews wanted was free buses, food/ WIC and to get as much money out the system as possible, without intending to put anything back as they would all have as many kids as possible, live their whole lives on welfare and deliberately refuse to educate themselves in order to avoid having to work for a living and pay any taxes ever, well, they might have a point, but they would also be called anti semitic.

Insularity for self protection is one thing, when it comes to abusing other communities verbally, stealing their school buildings and cutting their opportunities to educate themselves into a better life, and telling them they didn't want it anyway, well, that is not the behavior of a good person, let alone a good jew.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:08 pm
Squishy wrote:
There are definitely people here who don't interact with non Jewish people no matter their income status.

One example of different values and attitudes is premarital zex. This is bad in the frum community. This is no biggie in the immigrant community. The girls get married the first time as virgins in the frum community. The other community has many out of wedlock babies. I don't know any frum baby daddies. I wouldn't want my teens exposed to secular ideas of dating.
Having premarital s*x was the norm in my community as well, and I thought we had great values. We were kind to others, we respected the elderly, we valued learning, we worked hard at schoolwork and jobs. Having s*x or not having s*x didn’t mean we didn’t have values and didn’t want and deserve an education.

I don’t have any idea what this has to do with high school kids. Whether or not they’re s*xually active, they can be good students if placed in a good school. Sorry if the school board has decided they can be thrown away.
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wispalover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:20 pm
Squishy wrote:

There are definitely people here who don't interact with non Jewish people no matter their income status.

One example of different values and attitudes is premarital zex. This is bad in the frum community. This is no biggie in the immigrant community. The girls get married the first time as virgins in the frum community. The other community has many out of wedlock babies. I don't know any frum baby daddies. I wouldn't want my teens exposed to secular ideas of dating.


How do you know who does and does not have premarital zex? Maybe I did.. Maybe you did.. Maybe others on this board did. What difference does having premarital zex make? What you consider as values might be completely different from what others consider as values.
Example: I consider cheating the govt to be a huge disgrace; others boast in public about how much they have scammed from the govt/ others. In the grand scheme of things, do you think H' cares more about premarital zex or actual stealing from others?
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:50 pm
I don't know of pre marital zex having the ability to knock out your brain cells and prevent you from graduating high school or college. So it isn't really a valid argument for stopping kids from getting an education just In case they might get laid.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:58 pm
Frumdoc wrote:
I don't know of pre marital zex having the ability to knock out your brain cells and prevent you from graduating high school or college. So it isn't really a valid argument for stopping kids from getting an education just In case they might get laid.


In all fairness, I think that Squishy was trying to provide examples of different values held by the secular and frum communities in Monsey, without necessarily connecting them to the schools or graduation rate.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:05 pm
But the initial introduction of “values” was not disconnected from the conversation about why the schools are failing.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:05 pm
Barbara wrote:
Can you explain why that would affect the drop-out rate at Monsey public schools.

Also, are there no frum divorced people in Monsey? Do you believe that divorced people have different values and mores than married people? By way of example only, if a frum woman leaves her husband because of abuse, does she no longer share the values and mores of the frum community? What if her husband dies? Would a widow living on your block adversely impact upon its collective morals and mores?

Do you believe that black people, in general, have different values vis a vis education than white people? I should note that I attended a high school that was about 40% to 45% black, 40% to 45% white, and the rest Asian, Hispanic and Native American. We had close to 100% graduation rate, and over 90% going to 4-year colleges after graduation (with the remaining few going into the armed forces). So I guess I don't see it.


You asked about the change in demographics over the last 7 years. That is a pretty dramatic change on my block and the surrounding areas.

I believe that black people from the same higher socioeconomic strata as white people have in general the same attitudes towards education.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:08 pm
Frumdoc wrote:
I don't know of pre marital zex having the ability to knock out your brain cells and prevent you from graduating high school or college. So it isn't really a valid argument for stopping kids from getting an education just In case they might get laid.

There is no need to be vulgar. The problem with teen zex is teen pregnancies. A baby stops someone from getting an education.
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wispalover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:10 pm
Squishy wrote:
There is no need to be vulgar. The problem with teen zex is teen pregnancies. A baby stops someone from getting an education.


The rate of teen pregnancies is trending down.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:13 pm
Barbara wrote:
In all fairness, I think that Squishy was trying to provide examples of different values held by the secular and frum communities in Monsey, without necessarily connecting them to the schools or graduation rate.


Thank you.

Another cultural example is that hassidish kids stare unblinking at strangers or things that interest them. I can just see a minority kid being stared at and asking the hassid "what the" are you looking at? The two groups currently have so little interaction within the same town.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:17 pm
wispalover wrote:
The rate of teen pregnancies is trending down.


From the national review October 2013

"With little fanfare, the federal government has posted its annual compilation of birth data, including out-of-wedlock births. Here’s the bad news (essentially unchanged from last year): Preliminary data indicate that 40.7 percent of all 2012 births were out-of-wedlock, which is appalling, and there are vast differences among racial and ethnic groups. Among non-Hispanic blacks, the figure is highest, at 72.2 percent; for American Indians/Alaska Natives, it’s 66.9 percent; 53.5 percent for Hispanics; 29.4 percent for non-Hispanic whites; and a mere 17.1 percent for Asians/Pacific Islanders.

As I noted last year, it is, of course, no surprise that the groups with the highest illegitimacy rates are the groups that are struggling economically, educationally, with crime, and so forth."

My community has zero percent out of wedlock births.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:33 pm
out of wedlock doesn't mean teen.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:44 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
out of wedlock doesn't mean teen.


Of course it doesn't. Did you examine those statistics and the conclusion?

"As I noted last year, it is, of course, no surprise that the groups with the highest illegitimacy rates are the groups that are struggling economically, educationally, with crime, and so forth."
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