Don't Judge Hasidic Seat-Switchers by Tova Ross

black sheep

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:57 pm

The article is inauthentic because it tries to present a case for chareidim to politely ask to switch seats, when the original article it quotes complained of being coerced in a non polite manner. It ignores the entire issue and argues something completely different.

And for the topic of this particular article, leaving aside the question of if women should or should not be offended, if a man is that uncomfortable sitting next to a woman, something is very wrong. And not with the woman.

chickpea_salad

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 5:19 pm

black sheep wrote:

^This.

What happened on the flight was an embarrassment.

Scrabble123

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 5:31 pm

chickpea_salad wrote:

^This.

What happened on the flight was an embarrassment.

Embarrassment is putting it lightly. It was a huge chillul Hashem and atrocious!

And honestly, what is wrong with this guy? I'm not a man, but if I was, I think that if I asked someone to switch seats and was told , "no" that I could manage to stay in my seat, not touch my female neighbor, and not think s3xual thoughts for the duration of the flight... If that wouldn't be possible, then at least until the seatbelt sign is off at which case one could walk around. Stories like this one make me furious. I wonder how much blame falls upon him or upon his parents, teachers, and society.

cbsp

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 6:35 pm

marina wrote:

Did I say anything about WoW in this thread? Why are you bringing this in?

Chani8 & roika mentioned them, barbara alluded to them. I don't know for sure if you did but that seemed to be the comparison in the article that people found to be patronizing. I'm still trying to understand why that is.

I just find it interesting when those demanding tolerance of their upsetting the status quo are virulent against those who request tolerance for something they don't agree with..

Why can't the answer just be that these men will only touch a woman who's his wife so he's trying to avoid touching any other lady? I am addressing the situation where he asks politely which even that seemed to raise people's ire.

Clarissa

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:15 pm

cbsp wrote:

To me, that’s like saying, “Oh my G-d, I didn’t realize we’d be in the air!” People should know that the seats are close together and other people are avoidable. Making a random stranger uncomfortable is not the answer. Make a reservation that specifies you want an aisle or window seat with your wife in the middle seat and you’re fine. Otherwise, you’ll be sitting next to whoever buys the seat next to you. Booking an ocean voyage on a ship is an option.

Clarissa

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:19 pm

I flew for 15 years on business. I would have been unhappy to move for other people unless I had the exact same situation offered. I always sat in the aisle seat. I often chose the specific seat that I wanted. If I weren’t totally settled in, I would have been okay had the flight attendant asked if I minded changing to a different aisle seat. But I would not have been okay having that request from a fellow passenger, especially one next to me. I would have felt put on the spot. If I say no, I’m sitting next to this guy who’s bugged me and maybe is annoyed. If I say yes, I might have the hassle of moving my stuff and/or not having a seat I like as much.

Passengers should never make requests of other passengers directly, in my opinion. It puts people on the spot and creates awkwardness and sometimes animosity.

And, as I said before, book your seat. If you don’t like it on the plane, remember that for the next time consider booking a flight and find some other way to go.

Last edited by Clarissa on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:23 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I wouldn't be offended by someone's request. Many people have many, many offensive philosophies. That's ok; they are entitled to their own opinion. I think they are entitled to ask and the person is entitled to say no.

But I do always find it funny that Charedi society asks for so much leeway for their religious freedom and then (as a general rule) turns around and tries to limit other's freedom.

So while you would tolerate the request you would not only not agree with it - which I can appreciate - but consider it offensive?

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:26 pm

ally wrote:

So as long as hareidim are unwilling to tolerate secular influence or ideals - even outside of their "own" neighbourhoods - they should not expect tolerance from others?

Let's leave aside the fact that not all chareidim are as insular as others. All are intolerant in their insularity?

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:30 pm

marina wrote:

Hi, I'm Marina. I can't sit next to June on this plane ride because she's a Jew. No offense- please don't be offended, but I'm just uncomfortable sitting next to Jews. I try not to have any contact with Jews in my day-to-day life, and now, spending 12 hours next to a Jew- it's very uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you June, get over it, and don't be offended. My motives are not offensive, not at all. If you're offended, June, that's your own issue.

If it doesn't take any extra time to implement the request and doesn't result in incoveniencing me, I wouldn't take it to heart. I might say a silent prayer that she gets reseated in the gentile screaming baby section. (Not that non-Jewish screaming babies are worse, but obviously Marina wouldn't countenance Jewish screaming babies.)

ckk

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:40 pm

Its really not about objectifying the women.

I am obviously a women and when I see a easy switch which wouldnt inconvenience the I do politly ask.

I dont like sitting near a strange man for that amount of hours. Heck I wouldnt sit/sleep that close to anyone who I dont know well. Plane seats are VERY close. Its awkward.
As a previous poster pointed out, when on a long flight ans sleeping I expose more than I would want to, I touch more than I would want to and have been stared at by seatmates way more than is comfortable.

Because were talking about comfort, and I DID make the decision to get on the plane regardless, one can only ask politely and hope for the best.

But the request itself certainly is putting anyone down. IMHO

Clarissa

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:47 pm

I have little sympathy for the posters saying they don’t like sitting near strange men. It’s an airplane. There will be strange men, women and children. Unless someone is putting their hand on your knee or vomiting in your lap, deal with it. You’re on an airplane. You have not chartered a private jet. You won’t sit two seats together with nobody nearby unless you splurge on first class and the seats are in pairs. Otherwise, you will be near others. It’s uncomfortable, it’s inconvenient, but it’s how people fly from place to place.

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:15 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

So while you would tolerate the request you would not only not agree with it - which I can appreciate - but consider it offensive?

I don't specifically find this request offensive. I just don't necessarily want to accomodate.

There are plenty of things I find offensive (like asking me for help but won't look me in the eye).

groisamomma

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:42 pm

Clarissa wrote:

At Six Flags this summer DD landed on the Sky Screamer sharing a swing with a Muslim man. Somehow I landed in a swing with his obviously religious wife. After we were buckled in and settled, she asked me to switch seats with her husband so that he shouldn't have to sit near female DD. I didn't bat an eyelash and switched with him. Convenient? No, the whole ride was held up. But I'm not so bored BH that I have to seek offense where none was intended.

amother

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:49 pm

My brother flew to israel business class. When he realized he had a woman on each side he politely asked the flight attendant to switch with anyone from economy class. The young lady it was offered to was more than glad to get a free upgrade and he ended up sitting next to his friend. He is chasidish and didnt make a chilul hashem.

amother

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:56 pm

chani8 wrote:

She sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. She's never witnessed their behavior firsthand, that's for sure. She's never walked through their neighborhood worried about her safety. She's never been bullied by them. Never saw their egg throwing, mob behavior. They are extremists and bullies. While in contrast, having witnessed the WOW firsthand, with their grannies in kippot and other harmlessness, to compare the two groups or find some commonality between them is just ridiculous.

Oy.

As a chasidish lady, I also would not like to sit next to a man on a flight. How many times have I had even frum people in my personal space on a flight. I have asked to change seats.

I don't believe that any man (frum, not frum, nonjew) near me has given even a half-second of thought to my switch, let alone taken offense. It's just a whole feminist freak out

I understand if a person makes a chilul Hashem by creating a whole big problem or not acting menschlich but a person asking to switch seats to sit next to someone their gender is a sensitivity on their part and is SO not a big deal!!!!! It has nothing to do with the seat-neighbor personally. It's their mishugas that they make it about themselves.

It's part of the liberal sickness. Everyone can do what they want AS LONG AS it isn't telling me that I am the problem. Why can't we ascribe to our own derachim without liberals complaining.

dancingqueen

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 9:35 pm

I've been thinking about this thread and the one about the Ramapo board of ed. Call me paranoid, but I think we are getting a bit to comfortable in galut. I think some of the entitlement and little worry about causing a chillul Hashem is worrisome. Things have shifted in the world now and there is much more anti-semitism recently.

We would do well to focus on being or lagoyim and having positive interactions with the world around us. Just my $.02

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 9:42 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I'm not following the Ramapo thread anymore but I have my thoughts on it too, similar to yours. I will say that we have to be careful about making a chillul Hashem but I think it's not inevitable in the airplane situation.

Clarissa

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:16 pm

groisamomma wrote:

There is a difference between changing seats on a ride and changing seats on an airplane. Airplane seats are reserved in advance, and agreed upon by the customers.

amother

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:20 pm

Clarissa wrote:

There is a difference between changing seats on a ride and changing seats on an airplane. Airplane seats are reserved in advance, and agreed upon by the customers.

Exactly.

That's why my dh was annoyed that a Chareidi guy wanted to switch his window seat for my dh's elderly grandmother's aisle seat. He asked repeatedly and even offered money. He should have booked the aisle seat in advance, which my dh's grandmother did.

That's why my dh thinks this guy was just trying to take advantage. He was counting on switching seats.

They did not switch.