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Don't Judge Hasidic Seat-Switchers by Tova Ross
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:28 pm
amother wrote:
Who says I want to engage with you? Very Happy I'm quite happy bopping along making my pointed comments even if no one reacts to them.
Get lost, troll.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:32 pm
OPINIONATED wrote:
Or just have El Al designate one flight per week for Chareidim only. I would not be offended.


That only works if Charedim are willing to take only that flight.

But I'm guessing that Charedim go all sorts of places, and wouldn't want to be limited to a single flight.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:33 pm
June wrote:
marina, you're being dishonest.

how do you know that the motives of the guy who doesn't want to sit next to you ARE offensive, and the motives of the women who must not be named are NOT offensive? you don't know what any one person's true motives are.

anyway, regardless of YOUR judgments, the truth is most chareidi people would prefer to sit next to someone of the same gender just for their personal comfort. it's uncomfortable enough to be sitting within 2 inches of a total stranger for 12 hours - for someone who doesn't have much contact with the opposite gender, it's a lot worse. so for their own comfort they ask to switch. it has nothing to do with YOU. get over it.



Hi, I'm Marina. I can't sit next to June on this plane ride because she's a Jew. No offense- please don't be offended, but I'm just uncomfortable sitting next to Jews. I try not to have any contact with Jews in my day-to-day life, and now, spending 12 hours next to a Jew- it's very uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you June, get over it, and don't be offended. My motives are not offensive, not at all. If you're offended, June, that's your own issue.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:35 pm
My dh says some Chareidim use this to take advantage.

He says he once was travelling with his elderly grandmother to Israel. His grandmother got the aisle seat, he got the middle seat and a Chareidi guy got the window seat. The Chareidi guy kept asking to change seats with my dh's elderly grandmother because he wanted the aisle seat.

My dh said that he probably is used to getting his way on all the flights. But it wouldn't be fair this time to his grandmother. So they refused to switch seats.

The flight was not delayed, btw.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:38 pm
amother wrote:
My dh says some Chareidim use this to take advantage.

He says he once was travelling with his elderly grandmother to Israel. His grandmother got the aisle seat, he got the middle seat and a Chareidi guy got the window seat. The Chareidi guy kept asking to change seats with my dh's elderly grandmother because he wanted the aisle seat.

My dh said that he probably is used to getting his way on all the flights. But it wouldn't be fair this time to his grandmother. So they refused to switch seats.

The flight was not delayed, btw.


I doubt that had anything to do with the fact that he was Charedi. He just wanted an aisle seat.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:43 pm
marina wrote:
Hi, I'm Marina. I can't sit next to June on this plane ride because she's a Jew. No offense- please don't be offended, but I'm just uncomfortable sitting next to Jews. I try not to have any contact with Jews in my day-to-day life, and now, spending 12 hours next to a Jew- it's very uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you June, get over it, and don't be offended. My motives are not offensive, not at all. If you're offended, June, that's your own issue.


Just wait until I call the anti defamation league, every news channel, and sue your derriere in court. Maybe with all of the money I make from interviews as well as the settlement money I'll be able to purchase my own jet so I won't have to sit next to offensive individuals like you!
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roika




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:46 pm
amother wrote:
My dh says some Chareidim use this to take advantage.

He says he once was travelling with his elderly grandmother to Israel. His grandmother got the aisle seat, he got the middle seat and a Chareidi guy got the window seat. The Chareidi guy kept asking to change seats with my dh's elderly grandmother because he wanted the aisle seat.

My dh said that he probably is used to getting his way on all the flights. But it wouldn't be fair this time to his grandmother. So they refused to switch seats.

The flight was not delayed, btw.


I fail to see any problems that man would have, he was sitting next to a man, so he wasn't taking any advantage of religion, just trying his luck. Nothing to do with being chareidi
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:47 pm
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rising hero




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:51 pm
A stewardess once told me that she was on a flight and there was a frum man seated next to a woman in the first class so he asked if his seat can be changed. She came back to him saying that there are no available seats to switch (in first class). He told her he is willing to switch with someone who is not sitting in first class. She was really impressed. He meant it seriously and was willing to give up his expensive seat for someone else.
I don't know what he would have done if there was nothing available, but the fact is that she retold this incident positively.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:01 pm
Madam F. wrote:
A stewardess once told me that she was on a flight and there was a frum man seated next to a woman in the first class so he asked if his seat can be changed. She came back to him saying that there are no available seats to switch (in first class). He told her he is willing to switch with someone who is not sitting in first class. She was really impressed. He meant it seriously and was willing to give up his expensive seat for someone else.
I don't know what he would have done if there was nothing available, but the fact is that she retold this incident positively.


Well, he may have asked in a normal, polite manner. He did not hold up an entire plane of individuals, and whoever switched with him was happy to do so. Making an entire plane of people wait because you're sitting next to a woman is really unacceptable, and I do not understand how one can defend that. Asking nicely for another passenger to switch with you is one thing, but making demands that cost airlines and their passengers time and money is a different story. If this man wants to be assured that no woman will be seated next to him, he should purchase an entire row of seats, otherwise if he feels the need to ask, he must do so politely, in an offensive manner, and not alert a stewardess. People ask others to switch all the time. I was once on a flight where a mother was seated seats away from her toddler. She asked people to switch, but no one wanted to budge. The plane took off, and the mother was not sitting next to her daughter. That's much worse IMHO than a man sitting next to a woman that he does not know and is not intending to have intercourse with!
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:02 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
Please tell me which sects are supportive of religous freedom at the kotel and also supportive of men's rights to politely ask to switch seats.


Well, the blog post this whole thread is based on for starters. And on this thread multiple more "liberal" posters have said they wouldn't mind if they were asked politely. On this debate in general, all over the blogosphere, the most common suggestion seems to be to petition ElAl to make some sort of separate accommodation for hareidim. Not to tell Hareidim "don't fly ever" or we know you are really just trying to take over the planes.

And the fact is that everyone who flies knows that this has been going on for years and people have been switching their seats.
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:09 pm
June wrote:
all sides have to work on tolerance.

but it's dishonest to claim to have the moral high ground when it's only directed at some groups. at least chareidim make no pretense about it.


I don't think it's a pretense. I didn't want to start at the risk of getting this thread shut down - but the analogy to WoW would be more appropriate if WoW were tearing down the mechitza and coming on to the men's side.

That they are davening on the women's side with a mechitza is already an accomodation (from their perspective). But I haven't heard that acknowledged ever.

I don't think the intolerance is equal on both sides. How could it be? On one side it is considered a virtue and on the other, a danger.
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June




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:11 pm
marina wrote:
Hi, I'm Marina. I can't sit next to June on this plane ride because she's a Jew. No offense- please don't be offended, but I'm just uncomfortable sitting next to Jews. I try not to have any contact with Jews in my day-to-day life, and now, spending 12 hours next to a Jew- it's very uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you June, get over it, and don't be offended. My motives are not offensive, not at all. If you're offended, June, that's your own issue.


that's not exactly an analogous scenario, but for someone who is not familiar with chareidi culture, I can hear why they would think it's the same.

if your scenario were true, you are only refusing to sit next to me because of prejudice or hate (yes I know for the purposes of analogy you didn't put any hateful speech in there, but let's be real.). no one is hating on women here, although a woman unfamiliar with chareidim might feel that way. that's why I agree it's wrong to make a scene about it. but to quietly ask the flight attendant? nobody needs to be offended.

I think everyone here agrees that what has happened on a few unfortunate flights is absolutely wrong.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:18 pm
June wrote:
that's not exactly an analogous scenario, but for someone who is not familiar with chareidi culture, I can hear why they would think it's the same.

if your scenario were true, you are only refusing to sit next to me because of prejudice or hate (yes I know for the purposes of analogy you didn't put any hateful speech in there, but let's be real.). no one is hating on women here, although a woman unfamiliar with chareidim might feel that way. that's why I agree it's wrong to make a scene about it. but to quietly ask the flight attendant? nobody needs to be offended.

I think everyone here agrees that what has happened on a few unfortunate flights is absolutely wrong.


1. Oh, June. I am so familiar with chareidi culture, having lived it for many many years.

2. You assumed my motivations were negative, didn't you? Awwww, why would you do that? When I said I don't want to sit next to Jews, that's not negative, although, you- not familiar with my church- might think so. See, June, in my church, Jews are considered very dangerous. They pose a threat. They were God's Chosen People and who knows? If I sit next to a Jew, I might be tempted to drop my deity like a hot potato and start davening with a minyan. Judaism, our minister tells us, can be very enticing- but dangerous and provocative. A temptation. I must steer clear of the Jews. See, that's not offensive, is it? Jews are dangerous, but in a good way.

3. Does that make it better now?
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OOTBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:20 pm
Clarissa wrote:
If you see a “like” on an amother post, it’s that person. And you can subtract one “like” every time there are multiple. The first thing the cowards do is like their own posts.

Wow, I didn't even realize you could like your own post -- there should be a way that can be blocked.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:26 pm
test

we used to be able to like our own amother posts (I never did on honor tho- so if it was my amother post you can count all likes LOL) , but I wonder if its changed since we are allowed to edit amother posts. this is a test to find out.....
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:28 pm
amother wrote:
test

we used to be able to like our own amother posts (I never did on honor tho- so if it was my amother post you can count all likes LOL) , but I wonder if its changed since we are allowed to edit amother posts. this is a test to find out.....


I was able to like my own amother post.
I was not able to unlike when I changed to my user name, but was able to when I changed back to amother. (tho I kept the like on in this circ.) well back to the topic at hand.....
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:34 pm
Barbara wrote:
Tell me which sect of Judaism objects to people politely asking to change seats, so long as doing so doesn't delay the flight. Which sect has demanded that the Israeli government bar Charedim from flying on El Al.

Tell me how many people have thrown chairs and fecal matter at people politely asking about seat changes, without delaying the flight.


I don't believe any sect of Judaism objects to politely asking, but people on this blog are proving me wrong. the author of this blog wrote that it's not a big deal if asked politely, and Jews on this site, are bashing her. Furthermore, they are saying that charedim who ask politely and don't pressure don't even exist. Many posters are saying that it is terrible to ask even if done politely because being asked means they are being objectified.

I have no idea how many people have actually thrown chairs, but name one sect of Judaism that condones such behavior. I can't think of any. A few crazy people does not a "sect" make.
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June




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:42 pm
I know you are familiar with it. that's why I think you're being extreme. there's no reason to get offended when you understand the mentality behind it.

and honestly? I would not be offended if the theoretical Christian wouldn't want to sit next to me for fear he might be tempted to convert. I'd think he was silly, but entitled to his opinions. I might even feel a little flattered. if I didn't know why he refused to sit next to me, and assumed it was hate, I'd be very offended (and a little scared). regardless, your analogy is still off, because most guys do not think they can't sit next to a woman because they might be tempted to cheat on their wife. they do it out of a mixture of unfamiliarity with halacha and not being used to women.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:49 pm
If someone asks and you say no, it’s uncomfortable. If they’re huffy and belligerent, you’re more uncomfortable. You book a flight, you get a seat. That’s it. If you don’t like the kind of person next to you, you just count down the hours until you get off the flight. If you’re thinking impure thoughts about the person next to you, think pure thoughts. If you think coming into contact (accidentally touching) another person is inherently wrong, you must go home and not leave the house again.
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