Frum schools in UK forced to teach tolerance

southernbubby

Tue, Nov 04 2014, 8:49 pm

http://www.jewishpress.com/new.....ith-s*xual-and-inappropriate-questions/2014/10/14/

The concern that the British government has, is that religious schools of all religions are failing to integrate students into general society and that they grow up feeling that people of other faiths or s*xual orientation are inferior. The government officials feel that because the UK allows same gender marriage, the schools are obligated to teach tolerance and that schools must incorporate teachings of other religions so that the students can fit into modern society.
Apparently the Xtian schools agreed that students should be taught not to bully those who are different and that they would cooperate with the mandates. The Jewish schools are still trying to fight it because it goes totally against everything Jewish. While I agree that Jews should be taught not to bully others who are different, the rest of it seems a bit too progressive for my taste.

Raisin

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 7:55 am

morah wrote:

Absolutely terrifying that the state should think its their business. And a reason why we here in the US should be wary of relying on vouchers as the answer to the tuition crisis.

these were independant schools, the article says.

I imagine, all that happens is that their ofsted report gives less good marks in those areas.

Although the questioning sounds rude and bullying the way it is described.

Really, they think not using smartphones or facebook is negative?

chickpea_salad

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 8:28 am

Britain is not so overtly anti-government involvement in the way that the US is. Sure, opinions will vary but in general there is less suspicion at involvement and more emphasis on the government needing to fulfill its responsibilities.

So when something like the Trojan horse scandal happens, the general population thinks "how could the government let this happen".

I think they clearly misunderstood what was age appropriate for these communities. That is, in itself, insensitive. In its defence, however, this is a country that welcomes people from all over the world, and for the most part respects diversity, but is dealing with an extremely militant minority within a large muslim population that is a direct threat to the country and is entrenched in the "global jihad". And the government really has no experience trying to fight this kind of thing.

Obviously this was traumatizing, because s*x is not something you talk about with strange men (if it is even talked about at all in these communities) and I am glad that they complained. The inspections are not going to go away, but hopefully they can be more sensitive.

If you scroll to the end of the article there is a quote:

Quote:

Matthew added: “I am sorry if these questions seemed insensitive or offensive. Inspectors use age-appropriate questions to test children’s understanding and tolerance of lifestyles different to their own.”

“Ofsted is not looking for answers to questions which are contrary to their faith, simply that they are able to express views which are neither intolerant nor discriminatory towards others. This is vital if we are to make sure young people are ready for life in modern Britain.”

I'm not saying that they can go into schools carte blanche, and traumatize children, but that there is a lot more going on here than overstepping school inspectors. "Life in Modern Britain" is a euphemism for "not trying to bring down the country from within".

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 9:19 am

That kind of anti religious "tolerance" is one of the worst kinds of intolerance. At least the talibans dont claim to be modern and tolerant.

Their questions were inappropriate even for a public school. NEVER ever did I hear of something so nasty from an inspector. I can ask my colleagues who work in PSs if they go after kids with s-xual questions. I know the answer.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 9:56 am

southernbubby wrote:

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/uk-school-inspectors-bully-orthodox-students-with-s*xual-and-inappropriate-questions/2014/10/14/

The concern that the British government has, is that religious schools of all religions are failing to integrate students into general society and that they grow up feeling that people of other faiths or s*xual orientation are inferior. The government officials feel that because the UK allows same gender marriage, the schools are obligated to teach tolerance and that schools must incorporate teachings of other religions so that the students can fit into modern society.
Apparently the Xtian schools agreed that students should be taught not to bully those who are different and that they would cooperate with the mandates. The Jewish schools are still trying to fight it because it goes totally against everything Jewish. While I agree that Jews should be taught not to bully others who are different, the rest of it seems a bit too progressive for my taste.

I read the article and your screed. Unless I'm missing something, nothing that the government is doing goes against anything Jewish. Indeed, if I may be so bold, the positions that you implicitly endorse -- that gay people should be shunned and marginalized, that non-Jews are inferior -- is antithetical to the teachings of my rabbis and, dare I say it, to Judaism.

Perhaps there's more to this that doesn't appear in the article. But its histrionic to suggest that people will "reconsider their séxual identity" if asked if they know that same-séx relationships are legal in the UK. And any 16 year old girl who feels "threatened" by being asked if she knows any non-Jews or gays clearly isn't ready to live on her own in Western society, or to enter college.

Of course, there were 4000 inspections, 12 in Jewish schools (and only 3 surprises), leading the author to conclude that Jewish schools were being specifically targeted.

sky

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:31 am

proudmother1 wrote:

I didn't read the article, and don't know the details. But overall, what is so terrible about teaching Jewish, frum kids tolerance?
Some of the biggest bigots and racists I have met were frum Jews.

From the article:

Quote:

According to the NAJOS statement, in one inspection, 9-year old girls in an Orthodox Jewish primary school were asked whether they know how babies are made and whether they know any gays.

Quote:

One 9th grade girl reported feeling “uncomfortable and upset” after inspectors started telling them that a “woman might choose to live with another woman and a man could choose to live with a man, it’s up to them.”

I would be very disturbed if a stranger started having this discussion with my child without my permission.

Quote:

Apparently, the inspectors also “quizzed the girls on their views about Facebook and queried how they managed without a Smartphone.”

This is a parent's personal decision. What right does the gov't have to ask these questions, even if harmless? In fact it isn't only Jewish parents who make these decisions. If you've read Steve Jobs's opinion of technology and kids it doesn't sound so crazy to shelter children, he limited the amount of technology his kids had at home. I don't think children belong on Facebook at all.

Quote:

Although some non-tech parents I know give smartphones to children as young as 8, many who work in tech wait until their child is 14. While these teenagers can make calls and text, they are not given a data plan until 16. But there is one rule that is universal among the tech parents I polled.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09.....?_r=0

mille

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:33 am

Barbara wrote:

Thank God someone said it. Applause

Being homoséxual is NOT AGAINST JUDAISM. Certain, specific homoséxual acts ARE. This is not condoning these specific acts and telling people to partake in them, but merely the tolerance to not consider someone to be "less than" for something they can't control. IMO it is so not a Jewish value to ostracize someone simply because they are gay. IMO it is so not a Jewish value to ASSUME that just because someone is gay, they are violating the Torah by participating in forbidden acts. (Obviously that last one only applies to gay Jews, of which there are many!)

chickpea_salad

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:45 pm

Quote:

Apparently, the inspectors also “quizzed the girls on their views about Facebook and queried how they managed without a Smartphone.”

This is a parent's personal decision. What right does the gov't have to ask these questions, even if harmless?

If they were younger than 16, everything they do [except in rebellion] is the parent's personal decision. Even letting children make decisions for themselves is ultimately the parent's personal decision. I don't think the question was whether they have a smartphone or not, it was why, and how they explain it.

I think the thing they did wrong was misjudge the age appropriateness of some of the questions.

sky

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:50 pm

chickpea_salad wrote:

Quote:

why should I any age child be explaining this to the gov't? Why in the world is it their business? If they feel like they MUST know, ask the parent, not the child.

happybeingamom

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:02 pm

It is outrageous, a parent should have the right to raise their child as they see fit, unless it is abusive. Just because the gov't or someone (who I call the "do gooders") doesn't agree with the way a parent raises a child does not mean it is abusive.

The UK should clean up their on house after the despicable abuse of the Rotherham children which went on for years http://www.forbes.com/sites/ro.....ness/ before they go worrying about religious children fitting into to a modern society. I guess the rape of children for years one can look away at because it is PC. Yes PC is the new law in England, more important then the safety of children or parental rights to raise their children as they see fit.

People (Governments) with glass houses should not be throwing stones.

m in Israel

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:59 pm

mille wrote:

Thank God someone said it. Applause

But this is not really about how Judaism views homeosexuality. It is about how sheltered communities expose (or rather don't expose) their children to ALL s-xuality at a young age. These "inspectors" do not have the right to expose children to lessons on s-xuality that their parents do not feel are age appropriate.

Asking a 9 year old if she knows how babies are made is inappropriate, and has nothing to do with homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. And honestly, I don't think it is the governments job to decide that a 9 year old in Manchester needs this information. Similarly, asking young children to explain why their parents do or do not let them have access to social media is inappropriate.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:07 pm

m in Israel wrote:

What's wrong with asking if a child knows how babies are made? If the answer is no, its no. If you tell me that the person then whipped out a copy of Our Bodies Ourselves, or the XXX equivalent, and showed the child in graphic detail how it worked, that's different.

And 14 years old is hardly a "young age" to ask if they know gay people.