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Frum schools in UK forced to teach tolerance
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chickpea_salad




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:18 pm
sky wrote:
why should I any age child be explaining this to the gov't? Why in the world is it their business? If they feel like they MUST know, ask the parent, not the child.


I know England is an entire country, but it is very small, so think of it like a single US state. You will have different laws, different funding, and different governing bodies in different states that regulate and report on education within that state. These children are not telling the government about their mobile phone usage, a regulating body is collecting information about a school.

This is not CPS, it is not the FBI, it is a school inspection. Furthermore, OFSTED is not investigating the students, it is investigating the schools. The purpose is to find out whether the student body of any school is exposed to particularly intolerant ideas, which, I might point out, has recently been revealed as being a very serious problem in the UK.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:27 pm
Barbara wrote:
What's wrong with asking if a child knows how babies are made? If the answer is no, its no. If you tell me that the person then whipped out a copy of Our Bodies Ourselves, or the XXX equivalent, and showed the child in graphic detail how it worked, that's different.

And 14 years old is hardly a "young age" to ask if they know gay people.


My 9 year old son has no clue how babies are made and I don't need anyone giving him the idea to start thinking about it. And its not the gov't's job to find out if he does or discuss it with him. It sounds like in England it is...


Last edited by sky on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:27 pm
I would not permit anybody, official or not, especially official, to ask ME any of those questions, not one.

I didn't read the piece.

I didn't have the stomach.

These are personal matters, and the government has no business inquisitioning anybody, of any age, about them.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 5:19 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:34 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
I would not permit anybody, official or not, especially official to ask ME any of those questions, not one.

I didn't read the piece.

I didn't have the stomach.

These are personal matters and the government ahs no business inquisitioning anybody of any age about them.

I am not on Facebook. You cannot imagine the look I would give anybody who asked me why not. Or the other questions either.

I would probably respond something choked in which the words "your mother" were discernible.

Er, yes. Rotherham.
Er, yes. Your troublesome minority. Go bother them, genius. If you dare.

This is beyond enraging. Children!!!!!


Ah yes. Let's condemn something without reading about it. Because why make an informed post when an ignorant one will do.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:39 pm
You are right in theory; I should read it but I just can't. If I have missed anything, point it out.

I am pretty sure I haven't, but I am open to hearing about anything I have missed.

You know perfectly well this is outrageous. I rely on you; let me know.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chickpea_salad




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:43 pm
I don't want to cross post, but I have put up a video that I think would be worth watching:

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....43161

Also this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29613448

In which Ofsted (same governing body) is reporting that the Trojan horse schools have still not improved.

Quote:
At an event last month I saw a former governor at one of the schools in a heated argument with one of the new trustees who had taken over. Two weeks ago, police had to be called to another school, after a head teacher was confronted by a group of parents who objected to elements of the PSHE (personal, social and health education) syllabus.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:44 pm
There's a reason the founding fathers wrote up the 1st amendment after leaving England.

I can agree that many of the questions were likely benign and that teaching tolerance is a good thing, but I do value government not interfering with what religious schools teach. It goes both ways, though. You do need to be ok with Islamic schools being taught ideas that you don't like.
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chickpea_salad




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:55 pm
marina wrote:
There's a reason the founding fathers wrote up the 1st amendment after leaving England.

I can agree that many of the questions were likely benign and that teaching tolerance is a good thing, but I do value government not interfering with what religious schools teach. It goes both ways, though. You do need to be ok with Islamic schools being taught ideas that you don't like.


Thank you. I get it, and I'm not trying to say one is better, just trying to explain the UK perspective.
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:12 pm
marina wrote:
There's a reason the founding fathers wrote up the 1st amendment after leaving England.

I can agree that many of the questions were likely benign and that teaching tolerance is a good thing, but I do value government not interfering with what religious schools teach. It goes both ways, though. You do need to be ok with Islamic schools being taught ideas that you don't like.


I agree with you about being ok with Islamic schools,Christian school, atheist schools any belief system school. Parents should have the right to raise their children in the belief system they wish unless they instruct them to harm others.
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:20 pm
m in Israel wrote:
But this is not really about how Judaism views homeosexuality. It is about how sheltered communities expose (or rather don't expose) their children to ALL s-xuality at a young age. These "inspectors" do not have the right to expose children to lessons on s-xuality that their parents do not feel are age appropriate.

Asking a 9 year old if she knows how babies are made is inappropriate, and has nothing to do with homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. And honestly, I don't think it is the governments job to decide that a 9 year old in Manchester needs this information. Similarly, asking young children to explain why their parents do or do not let them have access to social media is inappropriate.


And that's my cue to bow out of this discussion before I say something mean (intentionally or unintentionally) about certain groups of people.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 05 2014, 3:25 pm
The frum kids aren't bothering anybody and neither are their parents.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 06 2014, 3:38 am
Barbara wrote:
What's wrong with asking if a child knows how babies are made? If the answer is no, its no. If you tell me that the person then whipped out a copy of Our Bodies Ourselves, or the XXX equivalent, and showed the child in graphic detail how it worked, that's different.

And 14 years old is hardly a "young age" to ask if they know gay people.


The fact that you can ask this shows that you are not really familiar with the frum community in Manchester. It is a community that is in many ways similar to real "Chareidi" Israeli communities. 9 year olds in these communities are taught that babies are a gift from Hashem, end of story. To have someone come in and ask "do you know how babies are made?" is in fact exposing them to new ideas. (And it actually seems from the article that some of these inspectors were doing more than asking questions.) Now I personally do not shelter my kids to that extent -- but I honestly do not see how society is harmed in any way by these children not learning about s-xuality.

Similarly, in these circles even a 14 year old really doesn't have too much exposure to these topics. They likely have no clue what homosexuality IS, much less have any way of knowing if someone they have met is gay! And although as mille pointed out, Judaism's problem with homosexuality is in the act itself, not the proclivity, it certainly is stepping on the religious beliefs for an outside inspector to tell a 14 year old "sometimes men will decide to live with men and women with women, and that is their choice". (Again, this was giving information, not assessing what the child knew.) Clearly this is moving beyond the issue of orientation and into the realms of action, which is pretty universally accepted as forbidden by the Torah (or at least certainly the male example is.) (And BTW, the 9 year old was asked if they know gay people, not the 14 years old. The 14 year old was the one who was given the "mini-lesson" on people's choices to live with same gender partners.)

And I do agree with Marina that if we want the government to stay out of our business we have to be prepared to allow others to teach their children the way they want to as well. In the long run increased government regulation always comes back to haunt us. . .so to me risking that some schools will be teaching radical Islam is the lesser of the two evils.


Last edited by m in Israel on Thu, Nov 06 2014, 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 06 2014, 4:08 am
I don't understand how cross-examining 9-year-old girls about reproduction reveals anything about the level of "tolerance" taught at school.

I think these questions are inappropriate and irrelevant to the purported purpose of the questioning, and I would be angered if some government official started quizzing my child about such topics.
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