Sabbath Mode Oven | Imamother

Leahh

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 11:48 am

bluebubby wrote:

Thanks for all your replies. My sister just bought a new GE oven and when she cooks on Timed bake so it should go off right before the meal the buzzer goes off and she cant disable it so she leaves it on regular bake and she takes out ALL the food at once [as per her LOR] and the oven stays on all Shabbos. Any ideas?

My GE oven has a timer and a cook time. The timer does not turn off the oven so I've never used it in shabbos mode. The cook time turns off the oven. Once in shabbos mode, the oven does not beep or make any noise. Maybe she doesn't use shabbos mode? Just the timer itself?

Leahh

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 11:52 am

amother wrote:

On Shabbos, the only thing the Sabbath mode will accomplish is that if you open the oven door, you won't be turning on a light or setting off anything else that is prohibited on Shabbos.

I just want to point out that shabbos mode does not necessarily mean the light won't turn on when the door gets opened. It will vary by model what it acyually accomplishes. For my oven it means the oven won't make any noise when it turns off and overrides the 12 hour auto shut off.
my GE oven has a light that did turn on when the oven door was opened even in shabbos mode. I left the oven light on all Shabbos to eliminate turning it on and eventually it burnt out and I chose not to replace it so I no longer have to worry about it.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 12:55 pm

Newer GE models have had a bug with the Shabbos mode that came to light this past Y"T season; they are working on a fix.

The mainstream psak is that an oven that is on must have all food removed at once (you can open the oven only one time before closing -- once it's closed I believe it kicks the oven back on which is bishul?) when it's Shabbos.

Regarding changing the temperature on Y"T, there are different opinions. That being said, having a Shabbos mode for YT is still invaluable as it allows the oven to remain on without hitting a 12 hour time limit or something (for safety reasons) even if you will not be switching the temperature.

sky

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 1:52 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The mainstream psak is that an oven that is on must have all food removed at once (you can open the oven only one time before closing -- once it's closed I believe it kicks the oven back on which is bishul?) when it's Shabbos.
.

Growing up in Baltimore this is what we always did.

My rav in Lakewood holds differently that you can remove food from the oven at intervals (only from the oven, not warming drawers, that he says everything must be removed at once). However, he said I cannot do the same in Baltimore because removing everything at once is the minhag of Baltimore (He was aware of the opinion).

Chickpea

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 3:38 pm

Leahh wrote:

By that logic, taking chulent out of the crockpot would not be ok either unless you set the crockpot on a timer to go off before the meal.

A crock pot is not an oven.all your questions are legit. Will be checking futher with my rav . I have the same questions you have.

heidi

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 3:41 pm

OOTBubby wrote:

Please check with your LOR about this. While the Star-K allows this (raising & lowering temperatures on yom tov while in Sabbath Mode), many orthodox rabbonim do NOT allow it. There have been numerous articles on the web about this and statements from many prominent rabbonim disagreeing with the Star-K and stating that this is not allowed.

Thanks, but I'm totally fine relying on the starK. Not looking for extra chumras in my life.

Chickpea

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 3:44 pm

Leahh wrote:

I just checked the book myself. What you are quoting is referring to specific methods of heat intesifying insulation, not including an oven. There is another section on ovens, stoves, and blechs on page 50 but it discusses uncooked food more than cooked so I am unclear what the halachic would be for cooked foods.
I am going to try and contact Rabbi Cohen and ask for clarification. If anyone here has contact info please post.

Leahh, I would really appreciate it if you would keep me posted on his response, because I am getting more and more confused about this. Thanks!

Chickpea

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 3:54 pm

Leahh wrote:

I would check back with your rav. In my uneducated opinion and based on how my rav explained it to me that would only be the case if the food is put in the warming drawer on shabbos. Putting it in the warming drawer before shabbos and removing it on shabbos should be allowed.
Eta I reread your post and see that you were putting the food in before shabbos. Were you taking it out on shabbos then putting it back in? Because I've read up on this topic and according to the poskim I've seen it from, putting cooked food in oven or warming drawer before shabbos is allowed. Putting it back in on shabbos is questionable.

I removed all the food from the warming drawer all at once and never put any food back. I actually spoke to the rabbi behind star k. My rav insists that a warming drawer is totally assur because it involves hatmana. I'm going to ask him to come to my house amd inspect the warming drawer and explain to me why it's considered hatmana.

sky

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 3:59 pm

Chickpea wrote:

I know the reason my rav doesn't allow leaving food in a warming drawer once opened is because the food is removed from the oven and then returned.

When the warming drawer is opened the food remains in the drawer and is pulled out of the heating element. Then when the drawer is closed it is returned to the heating element. Similar to taking food out of the oven and immediately returning it to the oven.

when the door of the oven is opened the food still remains in the oven and only what you remove is removed from the heating elements. [This allowed or disallowed based on rav\community]

[I don't have a warming drawer but this is what I understood]

Leahh

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 4:04 pm

sky wrote:

Thank you!
This response clarifies alot for me! Except then removing chulent from the crockpot would still be a problem because you are removing it from the heating element.
I did speak with Rabbi Cohen earlier but he did not have time for a lengthy conversation and promised me a call back. When I hear back I will post what he says.

sky

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 4:07 pm

Leahh wrote:

I'm totally guessing here - and haven't heard this from a rav.

For a crockpot where there is just a base - putting the cholent back on isn't an issue because it isn't enclosed.

For a crockpot that is enclosed some lift the pot out of the base to prevent issues. (I.e. we put in large balls of foil or rocks to lift the crockpot out of the base) - I don't know if this is the reason.

granolamom

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 8:25 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry that I wasnt clear. My rabbi told me exactly like your rabbi told you. Having the oven go off one hour after the zman is perfectly fine. I meant that sabbath mode doesnt help have warm food on shabbos day.

I believe you can have the oven stay on until lunchtime on shabbos and then have hot food then. but then you cant also use it for friday night's dinner.

granolamom

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 8:28 pm

bluebubby wrote:

is she using timed bake on the shabbos mode? regular mode, it will beep. on my oven (ge) you press two buttons simultaneously until sabbath mode appears. then press start. then set timed bake, no numbers will appear as they usually do but a mark appears when it is set. then press bake and temp (again no numbers will appear) and start. the oven will maintain the set temp until the timer is done and then shuts off, no beeping. check the manual.

mommyhood

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 9:24 pm

Leahh wrote:

By that logic, taking chulent out of the crockpot would not be ok either unless you set the crockpot on a timer to go off before the meal.

Opening/closing the door to the oven causes a temperature change in the oven. There's no such issue with a crock pot where the heat level stays the same whether or not the pot is inside.

Leahh

Tue, Nov 11 2014, 8:24 pm

Ok, I spoke with Rabbi Cohen and here is some clarification:
Food that is fully cooked (or at least 1/3) before shabbos can be left in an oven that is on or in a warming drawer and CAN BE removed on shabbos. If the timer on the oven did not go off yet, you can still remove the food but you should make sure the heating element is on so you don't turn it on when you open the door. You are also allowed to remove the food in increments from both an oven and warming drawer as long as the removed food will not be put back in.
Hatmana is a separate issue and an oven is not considered Hatmana because it does not tightly enclose the pot while also making it hot. The oven is a big open space. Hatmana refers to a tight enclosure that intensifies heat and some rabbonim do say that a crockpot is Hatmana (there are some that are not fully enclosed for that reason or as a previous poster had mentioned, putting something in the crockpot to raise the insert so its not completely, tightly enclosed).
I hope this helped clarify the issue. It seems clearer to me now but it could be its not as clear in writing so feel free to post follow up questions and I will try to clarify further.

MitzadSheini

Tue, Nov 11 2014, 9:20 pm

I have a related question. I did HEAPS of research into this before we did our kitchen- but still ended up with things not quite working as expected. We have Siemans. The oven is great but the Shabbat mode cannot be set for less than 24 hours - which means it is really just a a yom Tov mode. I get around it for fri nite by having it switch off just before dinner and taking out the globe so it does not switch on when I open the door. For lunch I will use a slow cooker ffor cholent or a platter to warm other food.

My question is- has anyone ever found a way to adjust the sabbath mode timer on a Siemans oven so it can switch in a period less than 24 hrs.??

Chickpea

Tue, Nov 11 2014, 11:40 pm

Leahh wrote:

Thank you for doing this research. I would like to speak to Rabbi Cohen about the permissibility of using a warming drawer on Shabbos(putting cooked food in before Shabbos and taking out on fri night). How can I get in contact with him?
My rav says that it's hatmana. I know I'm treading into difficult territory bc I'm not allowed to shop around for the easiest kula, but I need a explanation as to why it's considered hatmana.

Leahh

Wed, Nov 12 2014, 12:31 pm

Chickpea wrote:

I pm'ed you his info.

OOTBubby

Wed, Nov 12 2014, 1:42 pm

mtzadhasheini wrote:

That's why it is recommended to buy an oven with a Shabbos Mode hechsher (only the Star-K does this to the best of my knowledge) -- Siemans is not on their list as certified by them.