Friend is too cheap

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 4:48 pm

I have a friend who makes over 100K, which is a high salary for our OOT area, and her husband makes 50K. They're well above the typical income for a frum family in our area, and their kids are pretty young so their expenses are low compared to a lot of people. Here's the question: they're frugal, which is great, but a lot of times when they need something, they'll ask other people to help them out instead of hiring someone to do it. Example: asking friends to host them for a Shabbos meal because it's been a crazy busy week. Example: asking friends who are handy into doing "quick" handyman repairs. There are many examples, unfortunately, but I don't want to post too many details.

Should I tell her that once you're married and have a good income you should really cover those costs yourself, or MMOB?

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 4:52 pm

amother wrote:

You should MYOB. A: it's not your business. B: you have NO idea what lives behind their front door.

To wit: From the outside, my Dad looks like he has a gazillion dollars. Great job/car/home/vacations. What most people don't know is that he supports an institutionalized sister--emotionally and financially--and that this causes him constant worry. Ergo, MYOB

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:01 pm

I make more than your friend which is about twice of what most of my neighbors are making but all my friends that live in my complex have more rooms in their apartment which I can't seem to afford. And I don't live a luxurious life. Far from it. I don't ask people to do thing for me for free but just trying to explain that having a specific number doesn't make you rich. Also, is it the type of thing she would do in return for others? Either way, unless asked, MYOB.

groovy1224

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:02 pm

So asking for favors is only for the poor?

Look, if you have a friend a handyman, and you ask him to do some work for you, you should offer to pay him, rich or not. But they can't ask a friend to host them if it's been a long week? Wealthy= takeout? Really? It's not their job to normalize their salary to match everyone else. They don't need to spend more money than other people to even the playing field. Stop balancing their checkbook for them.

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:09 pm

I do know about their finances, because they aren't shy. They talk about everything. Our families are pretty close. They aren't cheap about spending on things that matter to them - like furniture, shaitels, cars. But when it comes to things they think they can get as a chesed, they try to go that route.

They're really focused on saving for retirement, which is 35 years off.

SRS

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:12 pm

Stop letting this occupy brain space. You might have an idea of what their income is, but you probably don't have the whole picture and even if they are rolling in dough and are displaying a bad character trait, what do you gain by instructing them financially besides an enemy (and likely an enemy who will be paying full tuition to cover those who make and pay less).

If they are asking to come to you for Shabbos, tell them you are happy to have a potluck and they can bring x, y, and z. If they are asking you for help with a quick repair, ask them to reciprocate with some childcare. If they are taking and not giving, this type of arrangement will help build up their giving side without hurt.

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:16 pm

We all get tired and have hard weeks. That's what takeout is for. They say takeout is so expensive. It is. Is the obvious solution then to ask all your friends for a favor? And then sigh about how you always try to do chesed for others, so why can't people help you out?

A handyman job, the kind my husband does for them, takes 1-2 hours of his time. That's a lot of time for someone who works two jobs and has so little time with his family. Their income is about 3x ours. Why don't they hire a handyman instead of asking friends for favors?

In our circle of friends, they're seen as kind of young, even though they're the same age as everyone else. At a certain point you need to transition into taking care of things yourself if you can. People who can't afford to hire a handyman are a totally different story. That's not them.

rising hero

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:17 pm

How can you know for sure how much they earn? Why do you assume their expenses are low? And if it is the way you say it is, then it's still none of your business. If they are taking advantage from you in any way then deal with that but this, gosh! We read so many interesting, weird, surprising, etc things here on Imamother, you'd think we would be immune to these posts by now... shock

SRS

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:18 pm

amother wrote:

35 very close years off and they better be saving all they can because families with 150K in income will get hit with huge tuition bills and have this one little window to really jump start their retirement savings.

Look, seeking chessed isn't the best midda out there, but people who are giving to them can also ask of them. People can also say no if they feel they are being used.

Barbara

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

Obviously, if you feel you can't host a friend who had a bad week because you think that she can afford take-out, tell her its not a good time for you. Ever.

And tell her that you / your husband can't do the repairs if you don't want to. (As an aside, good luck getting a paid handyman to do a quick repair. Even with an open checkbook and open calendar, I can't get anyone to do things that will take less than a week.)

The rest are just things friends do to help each other out. Rich or poor.

SRS

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 5:30 pm

amother wrote:

What kind of chessed are they doing for others? Perhaps they are doing a lot and their asking isn't disproportional if people would get over the income discrepancy issue.

I remember a neighbor I used to do a lot of last minute childcare for and then one day I asked and she did not reciprocate because my baby cried when I dropped him off to go pick my husband up in a major storm and it was really hurtful. I did feel used because there was no reciprocation, but a sense of entitlement because she had a ton of kids. But remember, you have a choice. You can say no to their requests. Just try it. Saying no, if you are one who likes to please, might be difficult at first, but it is important and empowering. Years after neighbor #1 I got another neighbor who needed childcare for about 20 minutes each morning before the bus. It was no skin off my back, but eventually it became inconvenient for me and so I gave my "2 week resignation" and it felt great actually because sometimes giving can eat one up. I did it before I felt the friendship would be impacted. I will say that neighbor #2 was fantastic. She always would bring me things like soup or a side dish for Shabbos. For me that was gold.

amother

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 9:26 pm

Quote:

You really can never know, maybe they help out there family financially and there is not much left afterwards, that happens a lot!

Nah - both sides of the family are upper middle class secular people who go on cruises and eat at upscale restaurants a lot.

Quote:

What kind of chessed are they doing for others? Perhaps they are doing a lot and their asking isn't disproportional if people would get over the income discrepancy issue.

They're nice people who like to do what they can, but like most families with young children where the parents are working full time, they don't have a lot of extra time so are limited in what they can do. It's not a case of them doing so much for others and just asking for a few things once in a while.

Whatever - in my view as the person who actually knows them - they're nice people who happen to be a little thoughtless and haven't quite "chapped" that when you ask friends to do things for you, it really should be only when G-d forbid you truly can't manage, because most things they ask for aren't a little favor, they involve lots of time and disruption to the other people (like when I babysat their kids for two days/nights and they just took it as a small favor, not a big deal, when really their kids were horrendous and I couldn't get anything done the whole time).

Anyway, I hope to learn to say no without feeling guilty!

Odelyah

Mon, Nov 10 2014, 10:38 pm

penguin wrote:

Quote:

both sides of the family are upper middle class secular people

Perhaps they are feeling the lack of frum family, and hoping people in the community will be their adopted family. After all, the things you're describing are things I, at least, would be comfortable asking of a sister or brother, even if I could afford to pay for them.

I think this is the most brilliant and beautiful post I've read on this site. The Ahavas Yisrael it demonstrates is so breathtakingly beautiful it makes me want to cry. Hug