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Pro vaccine/Anti vaccine...What about vaccine safety?
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 8:45 pm
yogabird wrote:
I meant treatment of the actual disease once contracted.

The point being that incidents from another era where everything from knowledge of how diseases spread, nutrition, hygiene and of course treatment was virtually non-existent, as reasons to vaccinate are mostly (or completely) irrelevant.


That's really not true. We are continuing to create vaccines in our highly knowledgable world. Diseases like measles are highly contagious and airborne. a lot is better but that does not make vaccination irrelevant. Actually, in today's high speed world with planes and a lot of other travel, vaccination is highly relevant.
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yogabird




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 10:01 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
That's really not true. We are continuing to create vaccines in our highly knowledgable world. Diseases like measles are highly contagious and airborne. a lot is better but that does not make vaccination irrelevant. Actually, in today's high speed world with planes and a lot of other travel, vaccination is highly relevant.
I may be missing a comma somewhere or something, but what I meant was that bringing tragic incidents from the 1800's as a reason to vaccinate today is largely nonsensical.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 10:25 pm
amother wrote:
Ummmm..... You guys should do a little more research and see the ingredients they put in the vaccines!!!!!!!!



Are you Mrs Peach?
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 11:02 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
Nothing is entirely safe. I actually believe that vaccinations are as safe as they can be today. Maybe as science progresses, we'll find ways to be safer and safer. I think that teaching your children how to weigh benefits v. risks, trust in Hashem, and do what is normal and right is an important part of life. People must know that being positive about things that carry even a small risk is important. You cannot face life being scared of something unsure, and vaccinating is something that teaches children to protect themselves, others, make decisions, not procrastinate, and accept that Hashem does rule the world and trust that it will work out well. It is not a blind decision to vaccinate because they have been proven safe and effective. Everything in life holds some risk, but that risk is so small when it comes to vaccinations that I do not know how anyone could not believe that the benefits outweigh the risks (unless they are suffering from an anxiety disorder or the like...).

I know each vaccine is tested individually but is there any research on administering so many at a time? The thought of putting 5 vaccines into my child at one time is very scary to me.
I feel that it IS a blind decision to vaccinate how and when the doctors say without doing even a drop of research. Doctors don't know everything. My baby had something on the back of his head so I took him to a friend who is a nurse. I thought it was calcified pimple or something. She said it was a pebble and showed me how it was moving and I was able to feel the sides, edges, etc. Told the pediatrician she said it was a pebble and he said no way. But it was. I saw it when I took it out. I showed it to him. So doctors don't know everything. No one knows everything. I am teaching my children to weigh the pros and cons, benefits vs risks. But who said it's right? If I don't think it's the right thing for my kid, why would I do it? Vaccinating may teach protection (not sure if I agree with that or not) but watching what goes into your body, or even better watching what you put into someone ELSES body, also teaches children to protect themselves.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 11:04 pm
amother wrote:
why not?
I did not mean for my post to attack u or your decisions in any way.

Because there was nothing personal or revealing in your comment which would have called for the use of amother.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 11:13 pm
Barbara wrote:
That's just another myth that sanctimommies made up to impress others with how superior they are for not working outside the home.

I remember chicken pox as being abysmal. I was only 2 or 3 when I had it, and I'm old now, but I can't even go near anything that smells like the Aveeno oatmeal bath my mother (a"h) used on me.

If you don't want to immunize your kids, don't. As I've said before, I think that parents who refuse to immunize should be forced to expose their kids to the disease before they attend school, which shouldn't be a problem since you claim that the only reason you wouldn't want your kid to get to get a disease that only killed about 150 people a year (not so bad unless your kid is one of those, I guess) is because of work, it really wouldn't bother you.

But can the superiority.

I know you are supposed to start from the beginning and work your way down, but I am going to start at the end. Someone asked me a question ad I gave my answer. There was no superiority involved. Kindly tone down your....whatever that is.

Now then, onto your post. I also had chicken pox as a kid. I don't remember the bath, but I do remember playing with my friend who had chicken pox at the same time. My sisters and her sisters all got it in succession.
As for exposing my children, as I said previously I believe my older children have had the shot, and only my two year old hasn't. He has been exposed three times and has never gotten even one pock. Next time he has a blood test I will ask them to check for chicken pox immunity (forgot the technical name for it.)
I didn't claim that the reason I don't want my kids to get chicken pox is because of work. What I said was that the vaccine was originally developed so that people shouldn't miss so much work.
Yes, there can be complications from chicken pox, but they don't generally occurs in otherwise healthy children. I never said there are no complications and I need said it's not terrible that people die.
I really don't appreciate your attitude, so please try to be a little less snippity.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 12 2014, 11:48 pm
yogabird wrote:
Wow. Not very democratic, especially the way you put it down.

Scrabble: are you also pro-prohibition?


I could definitely see where you would get this feeling, but think about it in terms of a weapon. Not vaccinating is like putting an unlocked weapon into the hands of your child: you never know who the weapon will turn on. Even if most people wear bullet proof vests aka get vaccinated, some may have not fit properly or others may be ch'v fired in the head (immune compromised or the small percentage that do not gain enough immunity from vaccines). It may not be very democratic for me to tell you what to do with your weapons, but in order to protect people, I'm going to make gun laws. I ideally wish that people would be responsible, mature, and trustworthy enough for me to have laxer laws, but since too many guns get into the wrong hands and result in loss of life, I have been left with no choice but to tighten up the laws to protect innocent life.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 6:05 am
eema of 3 wrote:
Because there was nothing personal or revealing in your comment which would have called for the use of amother.
I used amother because of my birthdate.
I don't want ppl to assoc. an age with my sn.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 6:21 am
My first and second are spaced 4 years. In just those years, the number of vaccines has raised a lot and the number at one "sitting", also. That's when I started to be wary.

I deteste the many-in-one vaxes- but they mean less aluminium injected.
Sometimes one can get special, custom no aluminium vaccines but it really takes some motivation, doctor support etc. SIGH.

I also skip the non mandatory (not all) and delay many, which causes problems with my ped every single time. There are people who ended up with the social services on their case. Sad
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california2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:56 am
Vaccine delayers/spreaders - you do realize that only the recommended (AAP) schedule has ANY research behind it, right? Spreading out vaccines may make them less likely to work. It may make you MORE likely to have a reaction - recent research showed this for the MMR vaccine (here's the NYTimes summary) http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/.....?_r=0

When you use an alternative vaccine schedule, you are ignoring research on hundreds of thousands of children, and substituting "what you feel" is the OK number of vaccines. And as far as the "too many vaccines" compared to the old days? In the old days, each vaccine has more antigens than all the vaccines given at one visit put together. Vaccines are "cleaner" now. One bout with a REAL virus (even a mild one, like common cold) has quite a few more antigens.

I don't mind at ALL discussing nuance with my families (I'm in healthcare). I mind when they don't want to discuss nuance, they want me to ignore science for feelings. Bring me data that this schedule is worse for your child than an alternative schedule and I'll vaccinate differently. "Data" does not mean "concerns about what might happen but no proof that alternate schedules make this better".

It's fine not to trust blindly- really! Just, if you want to use your judgment instead of expert opinion, make sure you've truly weighed every single fact and study on which the experts relied - do not simply find someone whose parenting philosophies you agree with and do exactly what they say.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:13 am
I beg you to show me the research on hundreds of thousands of children relating to the vaccine schedule. Studies are usually done on each vaccine, not on the schedule.

This whole thread is so silly to me, because once again we've digressed into "vaccines" vs not, instead of discussing individual ones which differ one to the other.

There is no "research" that supports the timing of some of the vaccines, other than for public health needs (e.g. the newborn who gets the Hep B and needs it most is likely the one not going to be taken for well-visits, so therefore we give it in the hospital to....everyone.) It's dismissive and superficial to believe that so much thought has been put into the AAP schedule that it MUST be in everyone's best interest.

I, as a mother, have a responsibility to the health of my children. Only I know my children (along with their pediatrician), not the state government, and not the school principal, and certainly not the AAP. Therefore, the responsibility lies on me, as a mother (and yes, an educated one) to do my best and think of what they really would benefit the most from. (I found it interesting that all the examples of educated people were male, but -- save for 1 -- the "stupid" non-vaxxers were female!) I refuse to accept that my rights and responsibilities as a mother should be taken away because there are some stupid people on the planet.

(eema3, the varicella vaccine was not developed so mothers would not miss work. It was created in Japan for those with weakened immune systems [or non-existent] like leukemia patients. The ACIP I believe was the organization that supported it being put in the vaccine schedule for American children, citing economic benefits as a major factor.)
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:19 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

(eema3, the varicella vaccine was not developed so mothers would not miss work. It was created in Japan for those with weakened immune systems [or non-existent] like leukemia patients. The ACIP I believe was the organization that supported it being put in the vaccine schedule for American children, citing economic benefits as a major factor.)


HY: There is no reason to give a patient with a non existent immune system (as in chemo patients) a vaccine because they will not generate a vaccine response and gain immunity (although they will give the dead or separated virus/bacteria vaccines to those with a suppressed immune system such as someone with HIV or on shots like Humira), not to mention that a live vaccine is not recommend for anyone with weakened immune systems or non existent ones. I cannot accept what you're saying as true because it is contradictory to basic science.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:52 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
That is a bit superficial, Scotty. Some side effects are documented and proven. While I am not saying they definitely outweigh the benefits of the vaccines, this quick dismissal of vaccines having any negative effects is what bothers parents, and rightly so. If people would not see everything as black and white, and acknowledge there is a gray area and work with parents on finding the right balance for their children, the vaccination scene would look very, very different in the States.


Of course there are known risks and side effects from vaccines. No educated person would deny that. and I am not aware of any doctor, researcher, pharmaceutical company, or government agency that would tell you otherwise. In fact, you are given a sheet listing the possible risks and side effects with every inoculation. Being "annoyed" because you're told that they are completely safe is rather like not using a car seat because your neighbor tells you they're not necessary, then condemning the auto industry after your child is hurt in an accident for saying their cars were safe.

Unfortunately, its difficult to discuss those risks, particularly in a forum such as this one, because you have too many conspiracy theorists spouting nonsense about meningitis being polio, vaccine ingredients being metabolized as mercury derivatives even though the vaccines haven't contained thimerosal in a decade, autism being caused by MMR, and other absurdities. It drowns out the people who have reasoned and intelligent things to say about vaccines risks and schedules. (I consider you to be one of those reasoned and intelligent people, FTR.)
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 10:09 am
Scrabble123 wrote:
HY: There is no reason to give a patient with a non existent immune system (as in chemo patients) a vaccine because they will not generate a vaccine response and gain immunity (although they will give the dead or separated virus/bacteria vaccines to those with a suppressed immune system such as someone with HIV or on shots like Humira), not to mention that a live vaccine is not recommend for anyone with weakened immune systems or non existent ones. I cannot accept what you're saying as true because it is contradictory to basic science.

No, I didn't mean to imply THEY took it, but it was for their benefit. It was given to those who came into contact with them. This is something I think is funny to dispute. This is not biased or agenda driven.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 10:12 am
Barbara wrote:
Of course there are known risks and side effects from vaccines. No educated person would deny that.

That is what I was trying to get at. Because the line I had a problem with (if you saw I addressed my post to one particular poster) seemed to do just that.
Quote:
In fact, you are given a sheet listing the possible risks and side effects with every inoculation.

That's funny. I hear that it should be done, but I saw a couple papers at my first newborn visit with kid #1 and never again, or for any other vaccines. And my experience is not rare at all.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 11:05 am
eema of 3 wrote:
Chicken pox (because it is unnecessary- it was developed originally so moms wouldn't have to miss so much work)
Flu (it's too new to really know anything about it, and te side affects are worse then the actual flu, which is generally not deadly)
Hep B (I haven't been convinced of the necessity)

I think there are a few others but I can't remember at the moment.


Chicken pox actually causes deaths, did you know that? My sis told me that when she did her residency in Staten Island UH, there was a child that died from complications resulting from the chicken pox. Saddest thing.

Not to mention my own lovely (NOT) memories of spending a week at home, in the sweltering summer heat, itching all over my body (I still have some souvenirs in the form of pock-marks on my hand) at the age of 5, with no friends to play with.

More traumatic than that was my little sister's case of chicken pox. My parents went to my cousin's Bar Mitzvah overseas on a Thursday night. My oldest sister, married, was supposed to come and be with us for Shabbos, but on Friday morning my little sister, then aged 2 1/2, woke up covered in spots. Married sister did not want to expose her children - it was 2 weeks before Pesach, so.....

All the siblings who had already had the pox went to sister for Shabbos, and I, at 16, stayed home with little sister (my friend came to help me). All Shabbos she ran high fevers, cried, itched, moaned...and besides for tylenol, there was nothing much I could do for her but rock her and hold her. She had a really bad case. I remember it as the hardest Shabbos ever.

So...the vaccine is unnecessary, right.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 11:33 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
That's funny. I hear that it should be done, but I saw a couple papers at my first newborn visit with kid #1 and never again, or for any other vaccines. And my experience is not rare at all.


AIUI, under applicable US law, all vaccine providers, public or private, are required by the National Vaccine Childhood Injury Act (NCVIA - 42 U.S.C. ยง 300aa) to give the appropriate VIS to the patient (or parent or legal representative) prior to every dose of specific vaccines. They can give you a copy, have you read an office copy, read online, etc. But you have to have seen it.

IIRC, they are also required to confirm that they did so in their medical records.

If your doctor isn't doing this, perhaps you should find a different doctor.
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yogabird




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 11:41 am
Chayalle wrote:
Chicken pox actually causes deaths, did you know that? My sis told me that when she did her residency in Staten Island UH, there was a child that died from complications resulting from the chicken pox. Saddest thing.

Not to mention my own lovely (NOT) memories of spending a week at home, in the sweltering summer heat, itching all over my body (I still have some souvenirs in the form of pock-marks on my hand) at the age of 5, with no friends to play with.

More traumatic than that was my little sister's case of chicken pox. My parents went to my cousin's Bar Mitzvah overseas on a Thursday night. My oldest sister, married, was supposed to come and be with us for Shabbos, but on Friday morning my little sister, then aged 2 1/2, woke up covered in spots. Married sister did not want to expose her children - it was 2 weeks before Pesach, so.....

All the siblings who had already had the pox went to sister for Shabbos, and I, at 16, stayed home with little sister (my friend came to help me). All Shabbos she ran high fevers, cried, itched, moaned...and besides for tylenol, there was nothing much I could do for her but rock her and hold her. She had a really bad case. I remember it as the hardest Shabbos ever.

So...the vaccine is unnecessary, right.

Do they know if the child that died was previously healthy or there were other issues going on?

So sorry about your experience with your sister, must have been real miserable. Don't wish that kind of thing on anyone. But, (and at the risk of sounding callous, though I don't mean to) IMO that kind of experience doesn't prove the necessity of vaccination. Unpleasantness is a part of life. Not to mention (once again) that the vaccines don't always work...
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yogabird




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 11:43 am
Scrabble123 wrote:
I could definitely see where you would get this feeling, but think about it in terms of a weapon. Not vaccinating is like putting an unlocked weapon into the hands of your child: you never know who the weapon will turn on. Even if most people wear bullet proof vests aka get vaccinated, some may have not fit properly or others may be ch'v fired in the head (immune compromised or the small percentage that do not gain enough immunity from vaccines). It may not be very democratic for me to tell you what to do with your weapons, but in order to protect people, I'm going to make gun laws. I ideally wish that people would be responsible, mature, and trustworthy enough for me to have laxer laws, but since too many guns get into the wrong hands and result in loss of life, I have been left with no choice but to tighten up the laws to protect innocent life.

I'm not very pro gun control laws at all. Not everyone agrees it does the trick, nor that it is entirely constitutional.
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Think1st




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 13 2014, 12:14 pm
Kids get 3 times as many vaccines as 30 years ago. Do we have more or less sick kids nowadays? .

Are the Japanese who give ONLY 25% of the vaccines we give any worse of?
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