Is it normal to need 113K/year for family of 6?

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:22 am

So DH and I have gone over the budget (again) and come to the conclusion that to SURVIVE (in Lakewood, with four yummy kids B”H) we need to bring in about 113K between us. That’s 60K from my job and 55K from his… is this normal? Looking forward, Imy”H, there’s going to be skyrocketing tuition as our kids continue to enter school, and then Imy”H bar mitzvas and weddings – I can only imagine 200K to be the bare basic minimum that must be earned to survive. DH is planning to start college this winter semester at night after work so that we’ll have a hope of doing that G-d willing – it’s going to be tough and I hope we can manage it, but we’re terrified. Am I crazy? Does everyone do this? Are we bleeding money and misspending? I’d love to hear from others. I know this has been hashed out to death here on the boards, but I can’t help asking.

Some of these expenses may seem weird numbers, but we took the final numbers generated over a year or span of months and divided them equally per month (ie, haircuts/mikva will cost more if both occur within the same month, and we don’t spend a hundred bucks per month on gifts but in June when there are tons of simchas I might spend $200 total on gifts for twenty people at $10/gift, etc.)

I try to be frugal but it’s impossible to be perfect – if you want to juggle kids and job and life sometimes you come late to a specialist appointment and have to pay the 200 buck cancellation fee, or mess up and bounce three checks ($135) or mess up on supper and have to buy takeout… ($40)… here it is in all its honesty. (Numbers may not add up exactly this is the basic picture)…

OUR MONTHLY BUDGET
Rent- 1335
Renters Insurance - 72

Car Insurance (2 cars) – 309 (one car for carpool, errands etc, other car DH takes to work – we tried with one but impossible)
Minivan Lease – 309 (BH need minivan to fit whole family)
Car Fuel/Tolls/tickets/DMV – 300 (fill three times every two weeks – variable, includes registration and tickets, if any)

Tuition (2 children)- 835
Lunch program for one child - 50

Cellphone (his/hers) - 166
Phone/Internet - 100
Electric - 120
Water - 85
Natural Gas – 70
Business files Backup – 25 (crucial for our business)

Filtered Water – 16 (crucial where we live)
Groceries – 1200 – 250-300/week (buy very few processed/ready made anything, buy reduced produce when possible, meat only for YT and celebrations, basics… not incl chicken which I buy direct from manufacturer in bulk… but I do buy lots of whole wheat, fruit, necessary dairy and veg... I buy whatever I can on sale or bulk and cook whatever I can from scratch)
Restaurant/fast food – 50 – needed for deadline days, cutting it out as much as possible now

Health Insurance – 850 (going up to 1200, thank you for nothing ObamaCare) – we're not eligible for govt plans like JerseyCare unless we'd be willing to have our kids get no out of state coverage (!!!!!) plus no coverage for 3 months, which we consider unacceptable due to experience
Medical/Dental Expenses (out of pocket, copays, coinsurance) – 500
Dental Insurance - 16

Cleaners – 65 (I can either iron DH’s shirts or bring in a paycheck, maybe next time DH buys shirts we’ll splurge on wrinkle free)
Home supplies & misc (cleansers, toilet paper, paper towels, home goods etc- Walmart/Target)- 200 (again, not per month, divided per year)
Cleaning help – 80 – 120 (2-3 hours/week for bathrooms, floors, fridges - scrubbing)
Diapers - 30
Gifts – 100 – birthday, bridal, baby, “chipping in” for office presents, photo gifts – I buy clearance or on sale, bake for almost everything I can instead, buy $5 chanukah gifts, but still… it may not be 100/month but over the course of the year it adds up, we divided it equally per month
sheitel macher (once/2 months) – 40 (usually less… crucial bec I have two left hands with hair and can’t wash/set myself without risking wig)
Personal (mikva, haircuts) – 30
Entertainment – 50 (renting $4 movie, going out to eat for relaxation, family trips)
Clothing/shoes/underwear/socks – 150 (Pesach & Succos exp for whole family divided by month –usually bought on clearance, hand-me-downs, gifts)

Tax - 1000
Ma'aser - 750
Experian Credit Report+credit monitoring - 15
Credit card payments on past debt – 450 (I know this is a huge chunk most people don’t have, we’re trying hard to work it down)

TOTAL: 9395/month [or approx 8900/month if no credit card payments)

this does not include maintenance for the second (battered yeshivishe collapsing) car DH uses for work OR DH’s college fees (starting this winter) or mishloach manos (250 per year usually, about 2-4 dollars a mishloach manos that I usually bake)... not sure if the 1K we pay the accountant (we have a complicated return) is included.

TIA!

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:34 am

We are a family of the same size in the same location and are making it work with about half that amount. Can you get health insurance through one of your employers? That would save a sizable chunk.

Leasing a minivan can get very expensive. We bought ours, paid half down, and financed the rest for 3 years. Our monthly payments were less than you are paying for your lease, and now we are done paying for it, and we have the car.

You also seem to be spending quite a lot on food! I think I spend $150-200 a week. Obviously for yom tov and special occasions I spend more.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:37 am

You sound very well thought out, and your budget looks great, realistic without splurging. The only thing I don't understand is 3 cars. Did I misunderstand that?
Regarding college, I live in the same area and am currently supporting DH through his doctorate program. Yes, it's really hard, but it's doable. Student loans are very forgiving. As long as you have enough money to live on while he's in college there are ways to work around the student loans - grants, low interest rates, etc.
Sorry, no advice other than that.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:40 am

OP here.

two cars - sorry - minivan plus old yeshivish clunker.

Nice to hear chizuk re: college - but how do you survive while DH is not bringing in any salary? I can't bring in more than 55K/year realistically while still being Mom, and that will barely cover anything! How do you do it?

insurance: Unfortunately I'm a freelancer and DH's job doesn't offer insurance. Wish it did, it would save us thousands.

Re: leasing, we looked into buying but it was wildly beyond our dreams when we're in debt and trying to climb out - we just didn't have the thousands of dollars to buy a new van, (even half), and buying a used one would have us paying the difference in work at the shop because cars just break down (or is it just ours?) :-)

food: How do you do it on 150? I can skimp by on 150 but find the next week that I pay the difference... 200 is the real minimum (and I have had times where I had to get buy on a 100 per week and the kids were not getting the food they needed like yogurt etc.) How are you keeping it to 150-200?? wow.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:48 am

Yes, it's normal. Crazy but normal!
I have same family size and we hardly got by when Our income was $95,000.
DH makes more now BH so we cover our month.
Our expenses were a bit diff than Yours obviously.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:57 am

We live in Lakewood too.. Our children are grown up and we manage well on 3k a month

A few pointers..

Geico Renters Insurance ....4 berdoom home 100/yr

Cellphones??? we just switched our out of contract ATT phones to StraightTalk for about 60 a month from about 180

Internet 100... I looked high and low.. It seems only only Optimum services Lakewood ...40 a month

MM.. whats going on there, do you have 1000 relatives

Our water bill is 20 a month.. Do you have an inground pool.. You might want to have a plumber check your house for leaks, we got hit with a 1300 bill once because of an undetected leak

Movie Rentals ??? You do realize that once youre paying 100 for internet, almost everything you could want is online..

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:08 am

I'm the amother whose DH is in a doctorate program. I have two kids, not four, and I am working myself to the bone. In fact, I'm working now:). Imamother is my downtime cuz my head is spinning.

My eyes are on the prize and I know this won't last forever. For me, it's a choice. I choose to work like crazy but I know that I can easily cover my bills. I'd rather this than working less and being nervous every month about how we will survive.

I work every day all the hours that my kids are in school, and I freelance on nights and weekends. I increased my cleaning help significantly, but we figured out that in the time I save cleaning I make enough to cover the cleaning lady, plus a lot more.

Your DH will only be in school full time for his masters/doctorate. During his bachelors he can work part time. We also scrimped a lot during undergrad to save up for the doctorate. You can do it!

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:08 am

OP here.

thanks for the heads up on renter's insurance and cellphones, we did our homework the first time but now gonna check it out again. Maybe we can maneuver lower rates!

Internet - we need a second line on our phone because of business. It is tax deductible though...

MM - 70 MM x 2/3 bucks each = 150-200. We have clients we have to service plus family and neighbors. I've made detailed lists and tried making less and there's no way around it unless I want to seriously insult people. That's just the way it is, so I've accommodated by working hard to make it as economical as possible.

and 'misc' is less movie rentals and more family trips ($15 apple picking adds up pretty quickly!) - though I do feel guilty for watching pirated versions of movies online nowadays. :-)

AND TO THE OP PUTTING DH THROUGH DOCTORATE: thank you thank you thank you. I feel like framing your response and hanging it near my desk...

(the first years of our marriage I worked that way - I remember being thrilled to go into labor because I could finally stop working for a few hours!!! Even if I would be in pain! But now knowing that it's not open ended as you say... with chizuk like yours I'm getting confidence that we can do it b'ezras Hashem!)

TwinsMommy

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:19 am

how is a car yeshivish? just curious. Smile

With all the respect in the world it sounds like a REALLY hard time for DH to go back to school with 2 demanding jobs and 4 kids.

Any chance of moving OOT? We live in Cleveland and our car insurance and renters insurance is less than half of yours. and we pay a lot less than you on gas for the cars because the longest drive we have to get anywhere we typically need to go is 20 minutes. Salaries here are comparable and the cost of living is muuuuuucccch better.

I don't see the point of the experian payment --- I use credit karma for free.

An average of 150 a month on clothing seems super high to me. You don't have to be poor to enjoy hand me downs. We get GREAT hand me downs from friends--- I just spent $60 on jammies for the kids since nobody had hand me downs in the sizes I needed and that was a huge splurge-- lol.

cell phone bill is high too--- do you both NEED smartphones? My husband still has a "dumb" phone so we can keep our bill lower.

diapers won't be forever--- how long till your youngest is trained?

If you freelance, any chance of increasing your pay a bit? I freelance too BECAUSE of the way I can make more money in a month I need more money and kick back a teeny bit in a month I want to. (husband doesn't work over the summer so we enjoy long mid-day walks and lunches out together. Though this year we're considering no daycamp for the kids, making us certifiably insane...... hmmm).

any chance of moving credit cards to low/no interest cards?

Kudos for figuring it all out--- not sure I'd be able to lay out every expense so easily. I keep track of monthly bills, but currently have ZERO idea what I spend on groceries for instance--- afraid to add it all up--- gotta work on that.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:39 am

I'm the first amother who responded.

Look into this for phone service: http://ooma.com/

We have this. We bought the VOIP box for $180 on sale and now have no phone bills at all! It paid for itself in 6 months. I pay $4 a month in taxes for phone service and that's it.

As far as cell phones, would you consider switching to T-mobile or another unlimited plan for $40-50 a month? That would also save some.

Re: the car. We bought a used minivan, maybe 3-4 years old with 50K miles. So far it has not broken down once (ba"h). I'm of the opinion that leasing is really not worth it in the long run. You pay and pay and pay, and at the end of three years, what do you have left? You have to give it back...

Re: food. It helps that my DH does not eat breakfast or lunch at home. Then again that means that he often buys takeout which increases that side of the budget. Now that my kids are getting older, I doubt I will be able to keep the grocery bills so low.

We also have credit card debt and student loans. I was not able to work while in college, but my DH was, so BH for that. Are there any programs around that have night/Sunday classes? That period of time when DH was in school was very difficult - he was working full time, in school at night, and I was miserable. But BH it was over!

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:47 am

TOTALLY NORMAL!

In fact, you have your act together better than most in that you have a pretty good idea of what you spend. That alone speaks volumes for how you spend it, and you seem to do it all within reason (my only concern was that you might be able to get a better deal on cell phone.)

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 6:49 am

Im not at your stage of life yet. Have only one kid with $230/month playgroup but I just want to suggest looking into sprint framily plan. Together for our two phones I pay $65.28 each month incl taxes and fees etc. I needed to buy both phones so thats a one time expense but paid about $120 for an old galaxy.my optimumbill comes out approx $50 per month.
Just something worth looking into

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 7:16 am

I am in baltimore, not lakewood but our rav told us that a family your size in baltimore would need to make 200K to really be comfortable. Most families we know are making about your annual budget, are living a relatively pashut lifestyle,and are really struggling. So if you can live off 113,000 youll be doing well. I realize that baltimore is not lakewood but I imagine expenses arent too different.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 7:34 am

Op I think you're doing great. Between me and my dh we pull in about 75k before taxes (I work part time), and we're just getting by with just one child. And that's with no cleaning help, barely any vacations, 1 car, living in a one bedroom apartment, just playgroup tuition. Honestly, I don't know how people do it.

tichellady

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 8:01 am

I can't believe you are surviving on that amount! Good for you! That doesn't sound crazy to me at all. We go through that amount of money and don't have kids ( although we live in a more expensive area).

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 8:05 am

I'm married with one kid and make that and live paycheck to paycheck and we only pay $30 for husbands cell and have no landline. I honestly don't know where the money goes but I do know that I wouldn't survive on that with six kids! Dh is in school now so I'm looking forward to him having an income too!

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 10:16 am

I live in Lakewood with 4 kids (3 in school with tuition). We earn a similar salary (about $120,000 per year). But our expenses are somewhat less. I have a 401k and put away the max (about 6% of my salary). And we put away $150 per kid per month towards future expenses (wedding, seminary, bar mitzva into mutual funds) and a $100\month for my husband in a retirement plan.

Not sure what the big differences are.

regarding insurance - getting from work isn't a huge savings - I pay $700\month with my work's plan - includes vision and dental (but work said it will be going up this year). Your price sounds pretty reasonable compared to what I know others are paying.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 10:17 am

amother wrote:

As far as cell phones, would you consider switching to T-mobile or another unlimited plan for $40-50 a month? That would also save some.

T-mobile doesn't really work in Lakewood.

And if you need a data plan for work it doesn't work. DH needs to monitor video in real time and I need to receive e-mails on the go. (Not OP just explaining the need for more expensive phone plans).

I think we pay less for internet. I have FIOS internet. I think it less then $100.

Your bills sound very reasonable.

causemommysaid

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 10:40 am

obviously we can all chip in with ideas on how to save a few dollars here and there but at the end of the day, yes, it is completely normal to need that much money for a Jewish family of 6.

in fact I don't know how you manage on that little.

An average Jewish family has about 5 kids. so a family of 7 who does not live in NY needs about 200K before taxes to live comfortably.

I would add 50K for a family who lives in NY.

(the one thing I noticed was that you pay for your credit reports. you can get a free report once a year from each of the credit agencies per person. experian, equafax, and transunion. that is 6 free reports a year)

kollel wife

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 12:11 pm

Would you consider subsidized Obamacare - it's like NJ family Care which you would not be eligible for for based on income and family size but the premium is subsidized - I'm not sure what you'd pay, but I know with NJ family care emergencies out of state are covered (emergency room).

I have a much larger family and live on a much lower income. The only program I have is NJ Family Care, and we struggle very much too.

Food - I only buy the least expensive cereals on sale and really try to buy every item on sale and stock up. Hard when you're working and busy, but you get into a routine with it. I will NEVER buy diapers/soda/laundry detergent in the co-op. Soda we only buy when it's on a good sale and then stock up.

We do not buy yogurt except as a rare treat and buy mozzerela cheese in the big stack and grate by hand. American cheese there's one brand that's cheapest I think it's Haolom - and I really mostly shop only in Shoprite or the co-op.

I only serve fleishiks once during the week- can make homemade rolls (challah recipe mixed up in the morning), soup and baked potato, baked ziti, lasagna, homemade pizza (make the dough in the morning too) I never buy take out food at all.

I will never buy diapers/soda/laundry detergent in the co-op. Soda we only buy when it's on a good sale and then stock up. Of course it goes without saying that I will not buy anything takeout,prepared, but I will on occasion buy a half price yesterday's danish in Shlomies. We will also buy cold cuts Thursday morning early at Shloimies which I imagine is on the previous week's on sale for Shabbos. Tastes 100% fine. I only put bones in the chulent, no meat - which tastes fine.

Even frugality with car trips gas helps such as combining errands not just running all the way across town unless you need to do a few things there.