spinoff: frum Jews have high incomes

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Spinoff: frum Jews have high incomes

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wife2

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:01 am

Fox wrote:

It probably goes under the "Issues of Concern" sub-forum, but it terrifies me that a family has to be in the 95th percentile in household income in the U.S. in order to live a Jewishly-observant life.

It is impossible for 100 percent of any group to consistently rank in the top 5 percent of household incomes. I don't know the answer, but clipping coupons and wearing hand-me-downs doesn't miraculously enable a family to live on the average U.S. household income.

I would like to discuss this concept. My husband is a financial advisor and works with many non-Jewish government workers who make about $100,00 a year. They all have 1-2 kids or none, obviously no tuition, and have TONS of money left over. They go out to eat every day (or at least buy lunch for work), always go on vacations, drive nice cars, and have huge savings and retirement accounts. They live a pretty luxurious life on an average salary. Even if they don't make so much, they have no expenses and have tons of money for everything in life. Their biggest worry is paying for college for their kids which is far less tuition than we pay our whole child's life for multiple children.

The average U.S. salary is about $50,000 a year and many Americans make between $50,000-$100,000. Most people do NOT make $200,000 or more per year. It is a small percentage that make a lot per year. It always amazes me that many frum Jews who are a tiny percentile among the American population themselves are able to make very high salaries and be part of that small percentage of people making above $200,000 per year.

Now, I understand that there are plenty of people who still make less than 100,000 or are poor in the frum communities. But it is really incredible that many people are able to make so much. I know a lot of people, both in NY and out-of-town that really are doing well.

Jewish people put all of their money to tuition or simchas or health insurance or buying kids' clothing and other things they need. We do not have disposable income to spend however we want.

Hashem really helps to make it work. It is amazing that so many Jews are so successful - yes, they are smart and work hard and have good jobs but it is all Hashem. Even though I know that some Jews are not affording it and managing, the fact that so many are able to make it despite needing so much money to live as frum Jews is so clearly from Hashem.

We know that we need to get top jobs and do train for a good field with a good degree; yet, Hashem still helps to keep many frum Jews earning what they need to live a frum life. The average American does not make much more than $100,00 and to see so many frum Jews making more than that is really Yad Hashem.

DrMom

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:36 am

wife2 wrote:

I don't understand your post.

Why is it "amazing" that some Jews are wealthy?

Is it "amazing" that some Hindus/xtians/Buddhists/Muslims are wealthy? A given percentage of the people in the US are wealthy -- why is it so amazing that Jews are among them?

Is it "amazing" that so many frum Jews are living *below* the poverty line?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:03 am

I think she is saying that it's "amazing" that a higher percentage of frum Jews have 6 digit salaries than there are in the secular world, as an indication that Hashem is really looking out for us.

That is not to negate the very real fact that many, many Jews are struggling, but there would be more Jews struggling if there weren't as many 6 digit earners.

(I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, wife2!)

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:24 am

Maybe there are more "lite to average" MOs with a higher salary than the average population.

I have never heard that, as a whole, lite MO to shtark charedi, there are more shomer mitsvos + Jews then average population. And if anything some of the most committed circles are the poorest.

Scrabble123

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:33 am

I think that maybe it's best for me to stay out of the conversation this time.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:34 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't know what you're talking about, percentage wise. Please.

rosenbal

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:50 am

I believe that there were figures in the Pew research study that supported what OP said. Higher percentage if Orthodox families made significantly higher incomes than average Americans.

Don't remember how that split up between MO and Charedi. I would assume MO on average more. Also I don't remember what the story with Conservative etc Jews was.

Anyone want to look up the numbers? I'm on phone so too hard.

spring13

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 10:53 am

The thing is, we know going into life that being frum is expensive - living in certain areas, cost of food and modest clothing, dealing with Shabbos and holidays, and of course tuition. So kids are encouraged to work towards profitable careers, in anticipation of future expenses - but then incur student debt while attaining those careers, which puts even more strain on their salaries.

We're also talking about combined household income, not necessarily that every frum worker is making $100,000+. Two people making $50,000 each isn't all that wild, in terms of what kind of jobs they'd need to get to that point.

If it weren't for student loans, my husband and I would be doing ok. Not the lap of luxury, but we'd be able to manage full tuition (at least for the 2 kids we currently have) and probably be looking to buy a house in the large frum community we live in. But we give so much money to the bank/federal government that it's almost like we never earned the degrees that are supposed to help us not live month to month.

Here's more food for comparison though. My husband has a non-Jewish coworker making probably around $85-$90K with 4 kids and a stay-at-home wife in eastern Connecticut. They're happily middle class, own a normal home and a couple of cars, not living the high life. This guy has a rich relative who funds family vacations for their whole Mormon clan. He and his wife saved for years to have an anniversary vacation in Europe, where they stayed with friends to save money. A dollar just doesn't go as far as it used to, for ANYONE.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 10:56 am

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

causemommysaid

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:00 am

Ruchel wrote:

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

nope. it means that both people need to get to work in opposite directions.

spring13

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:05 am

Ruchel wrote:

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

Not in a lot of places in America. Outside of a few urban metropolises, most towns don't have great public transportation systems, especially if you live in a certain location to be near a frum community but your workplace is 40+ minutes away. If my husband and I didn't each have a car, it would take him close to 3 hours to get to work, and I don't know if I'd be able to get to my job at all - it would probably take a minimum of 4 transfers with two small children in tow.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:14 am

I don't really know of what you're talking about. Where I live most families earn less than $100,000 yearly. Then we pay high rent, Tuition and clothing whatever. It's not really that much. Most struggle.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:28 am

Frum people likely work more and/or choose careers with higher earning potential because they know they will need a higher income to maintain the standard of living in their communities.

Of course the fact that they succeed would not be possible without siyata dishmaya, but I don't think it's a coincidence that they earn more- more likely a necessity. I'm sure many would choose to work less hours if they could.

Barbara

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:31 am

Ruchel wrote:

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

It depends where you live. Outside of major urban centers in the US, there is little or no public transit, and owning two cars is common. Indeed, in many of these places, kids get cars, albeit older cars, at age 16, to commute to school and jobs.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:54 am

Ruchel wrote:

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

This must be a cultural thing. I would not call us comfortable by any means - we struggle to make it each month - but we have two cars because we both need to commute to work, at different times and in different directions.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

We earn low six figures. We don't qualify for anything. Tuition assistance and other discreet help keeps lots of us afloat but we find ways to give back.

Fox

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:33 pm

I think Wife2 makes an important point: Hashem has blessed all of us in the Western world with a standard of living that was unimaginable even a century ago.

However, a gift that is given regularly becomes an expectation. That is the danger we now face.

Too often on Imamother and IRL, the assumption is made that anyone with a family income of less than, say, $150,00 did something wrong. They didn't have a "plan"; they married too young; they had children too young; they didn't go to college; they didn't prepare for employment; they went to the wrong college or prepared for the wrong job; they buy new clothes; they go on vacation . . . the list is infinite based on whatever is being discussed.

And forget the people who are struggling on $100,000 a year -- frum people who are struggling on *average* earnings are often regarded as community charity cases.

The reality is that you can do amazing hishtadlus and wind up in the 50th percentile, or maybe the 70th percentile, of household incomes. Your exact place doesn't matter, because you'll still be struggling.

Moreover, the assumption is too often made that someone earning $500,000 a year did "better" hishtadlus than someone earning $30,000 a year.

Frum communities face a problem that is not terribly common in the secular world: we don't segregate ourselves by income. Rich, middle-class, and poor live in more-or-less the same neighborhoods. Our children attend the same schools. We attend the same shuls. We shop at the same grocery stores.

But we are increasingly sending the message that money doesn't just talk; it does all the talking. We are rearing generations that wholeheartedly believe, at some level, that anyone not pulling in a household income in the 95+ percentile is a loser, a bum, a nebach case. And that's just not realistic.

We have applied the Lake Wobegon effect (" . . . where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average.") to our financial lives, and the result will ultimately cut off from our communities those Jews who are just "average."

mommy3b2c

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:42 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Anyone owning more than one car is definitely in the "very very very comfy" bracket, unless you mean two non insuranced clunkers...

Lease or own? We lease two cars and I would not call myself "comfy, comfy" pretty much everyone else I know leases or owns two cars as well.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:46 pm

Fox, I don't fully agree with you. In the US alone there are hundreds of frum communities, and many of them attract a more or less specific class of families. The communities with homes that cost 7 figures are generally not on the radar for many people. There are communities with homes that cost 5 figures, and they too attract certain families. In choosing where to establish their families, people do make conscious choices as to lifestyle.

PinkFridge

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:01 pm

MBV, you do see this out of town. B"H what we've also seen OOT are gevirim who live way below their means (even if way above ours), which makes a powerful statement.

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