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Spinoff: frum Jews have high incomes
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:10 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
The communities with homes that cost 7 figures are generally not on the radar for many people. There are communities with homes that cost 5 figures, and they too attract certain families. In choosing where to establish their families, people do make conscious choices as to lifestyle.


The communities with 7-figure homes, I'm aware of; the communities with 5-figure homes?

But this is precisely my point: the frum world will not be strengthened by further segregating ourselves based on income.

In fact, I see this constantly on Imamother. Those in higher income brackets tend to view financial problems as evidence of some defect.

Some time ago, there was a thread asking if anyone had bought their own home without help. The answers were very revealing. Virtually nobody had done it without help of some kind, but a lot of posters tried to claim they had. Several people had lived with their parents for a number of years before marriage, enabling them to save a large amount. Another handful of people had availed themselves of various government programs for first-time homeowners. Several others had co-signers for their mortgages.

While every poster had exhibited hard work, diligence, and deferred gratification, they didn't recognize the "help" they had received. And the more segregated wealthier people are from the middle-class, the less they witness the fact that hard work, diligence, and deferred gratification do not always achieve the same results.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:13 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
Lease or own? We lease two cars and I would not call myself "comfy, comfy" pretty much everyone else I know leases or owns two cars as well.


Buying quality previously driven vehicles and driving them into the ground, is a way to move towards comfort. Leasing, not so much.
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ohnuts!




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:19 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
Lease or own? We lease two cars and I would not call myself "comfy, comfy" pretty much everyone else I know leases or owns two cars as well.


It's all relative. Depends where you live.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:19 pm
Fox, I'm confused as to whether or not you think we should be segregating ourselves based on income.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 2:07 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Fox, I'm confused as to whether or not you think we should be segregating ourselves based on income.


No way! Oh, I realize there will always be some economic segregation, and as a conservative/quasi-libertarian, I am a huge believer in making sure that incentives exist to support and encourage hishtadlus, creativity, and risk-taking.

But I think as a community we are having trouble fitting our experience of affluence in the US with correct hashkafas, and that only grows worse when people are economically segregated.

When we create a society in which "average" is a shanda, we unleash a whole host of societal and individual ills.

For example, think of recent cases of financial scandal or fraud within the frum veldt. Were the ill-gotten gains spent on lavish parties, yachts, international travel, a fleet of luxury cars, or a string of mistresses?

Usually not. Usually the perpetrator gave into the temptation to make illicit money in order to be a "macher" -- to make generous contributions, to pay full tuition for his kids, to help support married children . . . Few of the perpetrators used their ill-gotten gains to plunge into a life of hedonism. Rather, their egos simply couldn't bear the stigma of being "average."

When we make it impossible for "average" families to hold their heads up, we put up a stumbling block before the blind. We can't then act surprised when some of them trip.

The fear of "average" also, IMHO, contributes to issues such as the shidduch crisis. With three girls in shidduchim, I'm seeing a trend: boys don't want to get married at 22, 23, or even 24. While they offer all kinds of excuses, the underlying reason is quite obvious and is articulated by my 21-year-old son and his friends (most of whom want to delay marriage a few years): they realize that they will be expected to earn a great deal of money, and they are understandably apprehensive. Only the most confident "alpha male" types are chomping at the bit to take on such expectations.

So, yes, it's a great bracha that so many of us can earn so much money and that our lives are comparatively easy. But we're going to reap a very bitter crop if we keep escalating our expectations and demands.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:43 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Fox, I don't fully agree with you. In the US alone there are hundreds of frum communities, and many of them attract a more or less specific class of families. The communities with homes that cost 7 figures are generally not on the radar for many people. There are communities with homes that cost 5 figures, and they too attract certain families. In choosing where to establish their families, people do make conscious choices as to lifestyle.

Actually, I think fox is on to something. Think about the 5 towns- you have 2+ million dollar homes in back Lawrence and 300k homes in Bayswater but the kids will be going to the same schools and shopping in the same supermarkets. That would be highly unusual in a secular neighborhood.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:55 pm
amother wrote:
Actually, I think fox is on to something. Think about the 5 towns- you have 2+ million dollar homes in back Lawrence and 300k homes in Bayswater but the kids will be going to the same schools and shopping in the same supermarkets. That would be highly unusual in a secular neighborhood.


Of course there are some locations where this happens. I just don't think it's representative of the frum world in general. IME we do tend to be somewhat segregated in many ways. Also, like pink fridge pointed out, outside of larger cities there tends to be a lower standard of living for everyone, including the highest earners.

In my secular neighborhood the wealthy and the poor all shop in the same supermarkets. There are also those at either extreme, who shop in gourmet markets or ethnic stores further out, but that exists among the frum people as well. There are people in Brooklyn who choose to do their weekly shopping at pomegranate, and there are those who shop at krm and moisha's. Same idea.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:43 am
Speaking for the mo world, I think there is definitely pressure, especially on the guys, to pick a career that will earn enough money to support the mo lifestyle, which is at least an upper middle class lifestyle.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:55 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Speaking for the mo world, I think there is definitely pressure, especially on the guys, to pick a career that will earn enough money to support the mo lifestyle, which is at least an upper middle class lifestyle.


problem is that upper middle class for secular people requires a lot less money than for a MO family.

MO schools are super expensive.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:06 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Frum people likely work more and/or choose careers with higher earning potential because they know they will need a higher income to maintain the standard of living in their communities.

Of course the fact that they succeed would not be possible without siyata dishmaya, but I don't think it's a coincidence that they earn more- more likely a necessity. I'm sure many would choose to work less hours if they could.


If it weren't for yeshiva tuition, I wouldn't be working. We could live the same middle class lifestyle :-/
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wife2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:21 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Frum people likely work more and/or choose careers with higher earning potential because they know they will need a higher income to maintain the standard of living in their communities.

Of course the fact that they succeed would not be possible without siyata dishmaya, but I don't think it's a coincidence that they earn more- more likely a necessity. I'm sure many would choose to work less hours if they could.


Non-Jews also want to earn a lot of money but many can't afford college, aren't smart enough for certain careers, are not able to get jobs, etc. The fact that so many frum people are smart, capable, able to work hard, get into college, get jobs, and earn a lot of money is from Hashem. Yes, they do choose those higher level careers, yet many people who have businesses or jobs without a set salary also succeed.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 22 2014, 5:52 pm
wife2 wrote:
Non-Jews also want to earn a lot of money but many can't afford college, aren't smart enough for certain careers, are not able to get jobs, etc. The fact that so many frum people are smart, capable, able to work hard, get into college, get jobs, and earn a lot of money is from Hashem. Yes, they do choose those higher level careers, yet many people who have businesses or jobs without a set salary also succeed.


we don't have more brainpower than other religions or nationalities.
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Dalia




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 22 2014, 8:52 pm
causemommysaid: We do have more brainpower! It's been known for generations now...
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 22 2014, 10:11 pm
rfried wrote:
causemommysaid: We do have more brainpower! It's been known for generations now...


care to back that up with reputable sources?

Asians are known to do very well scholastically. I don't think they are smarter than anyone else. their culture just promotes very hard work and discipline.
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Dalia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 23 2014, 1:10 am
Ashkenazi Jews are known to be very smart. I've read up on it many times, I'll try to find the sources...
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 23 2014, 1:15 am
rfried wrote:
Ashkenazi Jews are known to be very smart. I've read up on it many times, I'll try to find the sources...


Sefardi Jews are known to be smarter Rolling Eyes
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amother


 

Post Sun, Nov 23 2014, 2:52 am
There also seems to be quite a number of wealthy orthodox Jews in communities across the world who have Acquired wealth in an illegal manner. Unfortunately there are troubles that come along with being too poor, too rich and even too in the middle.
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