Cheating/Stealing/Not Honest????????????

out-of-towner

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 10:47 pm

groisamomma wrote:

IIRC you are allowed to lie for SB. Tell dh you were reimbursed but certainly do not cheapen yourself for $14. Just MHO.

I second this! Best piece of advice yet!

Is it really worth such a fuss over $7?

causemommysaid

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:58 pm

amother wrote:

What training, experience and credentials do you have to make such a statement? While the amount is small, the principle is the same. Mischaracterizing expenses to deceive is fraud. Your advice is terrible.

yup. we should throw her tush in jail for fraud.

this is one of the problems on this site. there is no concept of proportion. I am not saying to claim the expense but please don't turn this into the next Enron.

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:09 am

groisamomma wrote:

IIRC you are allowed to lie for SB. Tell dh you were reimbursed but certainly do not cheapen yourself for $14. Just MHO.

On that note...

Why would you lie to your husband about a mere $7??!
Can't you just tell your husband you don't feel comfortable requesting the reimbursement since it doesn't actually fit the guidelines? Why lie????

Frumdoc

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 4:42 am

IMO it is stealing, as the company state they do not reimburse for tickets, but do for the parking charges in the correct place. You chose not to park in the correct place, for whatever valid reason you had, chanced it and got a ticket. You can't then ask for reimbursement for parking you never took, to partly cover a ticket they explicitly say they won't cover.

Although it is a small amount, what are the consequences of being found out?

Will it impact on your job or career, as you are no longer seen as 100% trustworthy?
Will it be a chillul Hashem? Representative religious jew tries to cheat company out of small change, despite knowing their reimbursement policy.

And, this is surely not in line with halacha that demands scrupulous honesty in all financial matters (unless you are of the opinion that it is ok to cheat or steal from non jews and only need to be honest in business dealings with jews, in which case maybe one of the earlier arguments will be more valid).

Maybe yout dh needs to go on a business ethics and halacha course?

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 7:41 am

causemommysaid wrote:

The problem on this site is that ladies give advice without knowledge of what they are talking about. I had employee who embezzled $200. My manager called the cops. I want paying attention and I told her to handle it however she saw fit. My ex-employee now has a felony conviction. It was in the newspapers. I have a relative who compensated a fellow employee for the cash value of a benefit and when he made a mistake because of the blemish on his record, there was no forgiveness. I had a client who left work 5 minutes early every day to get to a second job on time, he was forced into an early retirement even though he made up the time at lunch. I was looking to hire a secretary and called for a reference. Her former employer told me how she took supplies home. I don't know how much but it cost her a future position.

What happens if the OP's husband decides that she should keep putting down for expenses she doesn't incur because he likes the extra cash. I am sure he could find a way to justify it.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:21 am

Just put in for $7 parking. That's what you're entitled to. Maybe your plan from the beginning is to use their regular $7 for parking and add to it for a better parking place. What if there's a nicer parking garage (covered, better security...) and you're willing to spend the extra money for an upgrade. Your company gives you the standard $7 parking. You upgraded to street parking. So you have to cover the extra $13.

I don't think any company covers parking tickets. If they did, all their employees would abuse that free parking pass. If you get a speeding ticket getting to a meeting on time. That's your problem too. If you run someone over speeding to a meeting, that's you're problem too. (if you rip your stocking running to work, you can't charge them for that either)

The $7 is totally kosher to charge. That's parking cost. But the $13 is yours

yo'ma

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

What you want to do is fraud. It is deceitful dishonest behavior.

From this post, I agree. I can't figure out what's so harsh about it. Amother wrote, what she wants to do, not what she's doing. Amother did not write it in caps like she's yelling or even wrote with exclamations. I know amother wrote later why she was harsh, but I still don't think it was harsh. Just my opinion. And obviously op thinks so too and that's why she's even asking.

You can't look at it from the perspective of how much the ticket is, just the whole thing. What if it was a $200 ticket?

Tova

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:07 am

I had a 3 day conference last year in which the hotel parking garage was $20 and valet parking was $40. The first day I was running late because we were having a bathroom put in our basement and I got held up with the contractors, so I used the valet, the next two days I used the parking garage. When I submitted my expenses for the conference I put in $20 x 3 (we also don't have to provide receipts for amounts less than $25) as I wasn't going to seek reimbursement for the valet of course when it was a personal reason why I used it but felt fully entitled to the $20 of that that I would have otherwise incurred. I don't think I did anything wrong, I would have no problem telling a partner in the office straight out that I handled it that way, I didn't even see it as a question. What does everyone think?

MaBelleVie

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:12 am

Tova, you're on your way to prison.

(Personally I would not feel comfortable seeking reimbursement without clarifying what the expense actually was. If I felt it was unprofessional to do so I would just skip it)

Simple1

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:34 am

Not being familiar with the rules, I can't advise. But to say it's fraud and cheating seems to be a huge exaggeration when the company is wiling to spend $7 on parking anyway. Asking is the safest way out, although I understand your reasons for not wanting to do so.

Frumdoc

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:50 am

Simple1 wrote:

The concept of stealing is not dependent on the value of the item. We are careful to return small change, less than a dollar, to a store, or a packet of sweets a child has taken without your knowledge. Why is this any different?

I don't think it is a "terrible aveira", but it is not honest and should not be done.

In the case of the valet parking, if the parking is in the same place, and it is just a question of serviced or unserviced, you have asked for reimbursement of the "normal" park but not the extra service. This is fair, as you actually used the parking space you have asked for reimbursement for.

In the original case, you are implying you have parked in a paid lot, in order to seek partial reimbursement for a ticket obtained by parking on the street.

If I took a taxi to a meeting instead of a train, but asked for reimbursement of the train fare, it is gan evas daas as well as attempting to obtain money under false pretences. Small amounts, but conceptually the same as falsifying taxes.

causemommysaid

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:50 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Tova, you're on your way to prison.

Not just prison but this is a huge ponzi scheme worthy of nationwide coverage. Gosh I feel like this site is teaming with Bernie Madoffs. seriously! what is the frum world coming to?

causemommysaid

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:52 pm

Tova wrote:

FYI I think this is perfectly reasonable.

The only reason I would say its a little different for the OP is because she would be classifying a penalty as parking which is different than classifying one sort of parking for a different sort.

greenfire

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:59 pm

kb wrote:

totally wonder the same thing - I never understand lying - especially over a small thing

black sheep

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:10 pm

okay, calling this fraud is quite a stretch. OP is entitled to the seven dollars, it was her choice to park in the street not the garage. it is not honest to submit an expense which you didn't use, even if it was approved to be used, but it certainly isn't financial fraud. for goodness sakes.

OP, this doesn't sit right with you, and for good reason. it is dishonest and unethical. so don't do it! you don't want to do it, listen to your gut. this will remain with you for a long time as something wrong you felt pressured to do.

a bigger issue is why is your husband pressuring you to do something you feel uncomfortable doing? it certainly can't be for the money, I am assuming 14 dollars will not make the difference of eating or starving for you. you have a difference of opinion on this one, why is he putting you in a position where you feel you have to do something dishonest, and for a mere 14 dollars no less?

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 4:01 pm

black sheep wrote:

It is fraud even though it is only seven dollars.

Petra

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 5:09 pm

If it were me, I would not submit a request for $7 if I did not park in the designated parking areas in which the company reimburses for $7. I would just pay the ticket. I also would tell my DH that I would not feel comfortable asking for reimbursement in such situation and I would inform him of my opinion of his idea. And then that is that.