Judaism Must Embrace the Convert

PinkFridge

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 8:14 am

amother wrote:

It's against halachah. Exactly to be a community leader is wrong.

I think you may want to excise the Gemara. Lots of geirim quoted there. Authoritatively.

Now my question: OP, I understand your going amother. You may have some strong, personal feelings on this. But I don't understand your posting and running. Please tell us where you stand on this article. Thanks!

OOTforlife

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 8:48 am

ora_43 wrote:

That's an... unusual interpretation of the halacha, from what I've learned. There are examples of geirim who were respected rabbis going back thousands of years.

There's a prohibition on a ger being king, which the chochamim expanded to include being head of the army and certain other top posts. But I don't think they expanded it to include heading a "leadership development program" or social justice group Confused

. Sounds like you are talking about the issue of serarah. Which applies to both gerim and women. AFAIK it is the main "technical" halachic objection to women being rabbis. I believe most interpret it to apply more broadly than you're suggesting.

causemommysaid

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:06 am

sequoia wrote:

This is the first time I'm hearing that a ger can't have any leadership role.

me too.

amother

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:23 am

sequoia wrote:

This is the first time I'm hearing that a ger can't have any leadership role.

I'm sure there're many things you've heard first on imamother. Congratulations on education.

sequoia

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:24 am

amother wrote:

I'm sure there're many things you've heard first on imamother. Congratulations on education.

That is gratuitously unkind. Is this what amother is for???

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:42 am

OOTforlife wrote:

I don't know of any rabbis who interpret it as broadly as amother is suggesting. As has been said here, there are rabbis quoted in the mishna who were geirim.

Serara is more than just a "leadership position." It's a position with authority over other people's lives. So for example, being a rosh yeshiva is obviously a leadership position, but many say it's not a position with authority, because the only power the rosh yeshiva has is whether to allow people to study there or not.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:55 am

There is no halacha against converts having leadership roles. Onkelos was a ger, Shemaya and Avtalion also, many respected rabbis including some that I know of.Honestly, someone that says otherwise is giving their own interpretation to the Gemara.
Also,let us all remember the issur of reminding a convert of their past. A ger is a full Jew, whether some amothers like it or not.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:02 am

sequoia wrote:

This is the first time I'm hearing that a ger can't have any leadership role.

A ger can't have certain positions of power. But there are still a lot of things most people would consider leadership roles that aren't an issue.

You didn't hear about it because it's nothing that's relevant to most people's lives these days.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:05 am

Shemaya and Avtalion where in the Sanhedrin. If that is not a position of power, I don't know what it is!
They were Nassi and Av Bet Din.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:27 am

Bruria wrote:

Shemaya and Avtalion where in the Sanhedrin. If that is not a position of power, I don't know what it is!
They were Nassi and Av Bet Din.

As I wrote - certain positions of power. Specifically, with authority over someone's life.

D'oraita, it applies to kings. Kings must be of Jewish descent. D'rabanan, a ger also cannot rule in death penalty cases or lead the army.

Rambam takes it a lot further, but still not the point of saying geirim couldn't be rabbis or lead yeshivas or social justice groups or the like. Rambam also says women should not have positions of authority. Outside of the hareidi world, we tend not to hold by Rambam in these matters.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:53 am

ora_43 wrote:

Sorry to say this, but the Nassi and the Av Bet Din did have authority over someone's life. History here, in our Talmud, contradicts whatever Rambam claimed.

marina

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:54 am

although this thread is a little surreal, I'm not sure why anyone, including me, is really suprised. Judaism is built on hierarchies. Women are expected to know their place and many groups reject the idea of women taking prominent roles in the community. BTs with their nidda conception, etc, etc. So is it really suprising that someone would adopt this attitude towards geirim? No. Sad, but not surprising.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:20 am

Bruria wrote:

Sorry to say this, but the Nassi and the Av Bet Din did have authority over someone's life. History here, in our Talmud, contradicts whatever Rambam claimed.

Either the Gemara is a source, or it isn't.

eta - meaning, it seems strange to me to say that something written in the Gemara can't be true because of something else written in the Gemara. (Even if the Gemara did work like that - which it doesn't. It's all about the contradicting opinions.)

Barbara

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:23 am

sequoia wrote:

This thread has really shaken me.

Please don't let it.

There are always going to be people who don't understand the halachic imperative to treat gerim precisely the way we treat Jews from birth. Who will try to pretend that their own ugly prejudices are halachically based. They're not. They are people who are not practices Torah Judaism. You, you're totally cool, in all ways.

SRS

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:36 am

I am sorry, but an 8 year conversionwhere someone lives as a Jew but no beis din can take care of the job is not in the interest oc the convert or the community. I do not have a comment on the article, but to call a standard conversion process one of convience shows a lack of different sources on the matter.

Barbara

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:52 am

SRS wrote:

I thought that potential converts weren't permitted to live as Jews prior to the conversion. Would the conversion of someone who did so be considered legitimate?