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Spinoff - Embracing the Convert
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:01 am
Thank you to the amother who posted the article from NYT this week about Judaism needing to embrace the convert. I thought it was a well-written article and agreed with it, obviously - why NOT embrace wholeheartedly someone who chooses to keep torah and halacha?

My question is, I don't know any converts IRL. So at the risk of sounding stupid - do converts ACTUALLY feel alienated and degraded? Beyond just the Freundel scandal (I obviously do not approve of mikvah voyeurism!!) - what are converts experiencing that is so alienating?

As I said, I am happy to fight the good fight for inclusion of everyone Jewish, we are all One People, but I guess I don't quite understand what I am fighting for embarrassed
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:30 am
I am not a convert, but I have a number of relatives who are. I would say, the two big issues they face are: people questioning their legitimacy, and people being nosy (particularly where the convert doesn't "look Jewish"). My aunt who is a convert has to live in constant fear that she/her kids can be declared not Jewish by powerful rabbis in Israel just because, say, she doesn't cover her hair. This same aunt is also not white and often gets randomly asked about her "journey to Judaism". Now, she is not ashamed of her journey and is perfectly happy to share the story with those who are genuinely interested in hearing about it. But she does NOT appreciate being asked that question when the obvious motive of the asker is to satisfy their curiosity as to how someone of her ethnicity ended up Jewish.
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:38 am
amother wrote:
I am not a convert, but I have a number of relatives who are. I would say, the two big issues they face are: people questioning their legitimacy, and people being nosy (particularly where the convert doesn't "look Jewish"). My aunt who is a convert has to live in constant fear that she/her kids can be declared not Jewish by powerful rabbis in Israel just because, say, she doesn't cover her hair. This same aunt is also not white and often gets randomly asked about her "journey to Judaism". Now, she is not ashamed of her journey and is perfectly happy to share the story with those who are genuinely interested in hearing about it. But she does NOT appreciate being asked that question when the obvious motive of the asker is to satisfy their curiosity as to how someone of her ethnicity ended up Jewish.

Please explain to me how these two reasons are any different. I'm interested to learn how and why people become bt's and geirim, yes out of curiosity and to help me appreciate judiasm more. For me judiasm is not hard because I was brought that way, but in general it's not easy. There are so many laws. Why would someone want to obey all those laws no matter how much they believe especially when it comes to geirim because they can just keep the 7 laws of noach?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:41 am
There aren't Bnei Noach communities everywhere, it can be very lonely... also as soon as you want to learn in a bit of depth... you gotta be Jewish or people don't generally agree.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 5:18 am
yo'ma wrote:
Please explain to me how these two reasons are any different. I'm interested to learn how and why people become bt's and geirim, yes out of curiosity and to help me appreciate judiasm more. For me judiasm is not hard because I was brought that way, but in general it's not easy. There are so many laws. Why would someone want to obey all those laws no matter how much they believe especially when it comes to geirim because they can just keep the 7 laws of noach?


There is a BIG difference between "I know Sarah is a convert. I wonder how she discovered the truth of Torah/ how she decided she wanted to voluntarily take on the 613 mitzvos" and "Wow, look! A black/Hispanic/Asian woman in a shul! I wonder how THAT came to be!"
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:51 am
This is how, back when my friend was dating they dated this person a bunch of times (shidduch style) and liked each other very much. When the potential FIL (who is a Rabbi) found out at that point that my friend is a convert (they shared it at that point, FFB adopted convert) he said "No Way! My child is not allowed to marry a convert!" And so they "had" to break up.

Hurts til this day, years and years later.
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:16 am
yo'ma wrote:
Why would someone want to obey all those laws no matter how much they believe especially when it comes to geirim because they can just keep the 7 laws of noach?


They obey them because they want to be a part of klal yisroel.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:41 am
I'm a giores. I was not satisfied with the 7 Noachide mitzvos. I wanted more, I wanted to come closer to Hashem. The 7 Noachide mitzvos are very basic and don't demand a lot of growth from you. If you want to use your life to come closer to Hashem to the fullest extent possible, it's a no-brainer which path you should choose.

Plus anyway I was yearning to be Jewish and felt I had come home once I discovered Yiddishkeit.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 2:08 pm
I am also a giores, and my husband is a ger, although he has Jewish heritage -- all of his father's side is Jewish.

We converted in a different community, and then moved (for various reasons not related to the giyur). In our previous community, we were very open about our conversion. In our new community, we have kept it under wraps. We are not so much afraid that people will judge/slight/question us. It is more of a desire to protect our children. We want them to consider themselves fully Jewish in every way, not more and not less because of their conversion. We simply want them to regard themselves as a part of Am Israel, with all of the privileges and responsibility that holds.

We also do not want people examining our every move in light of our conversion (which definitely happens, it happened in our old community...). It can be disheartening to realize that you have missed another unwritten rule (again) or said something not quite right. People do tend to be more nit-picky with gerim, and some want to "help" by correcting everything that they see you do that is "not the right way." It can get old. We just want to grown in avodas Hashem, at our own pace, just like everyone else, and not be expected to know everything and do everything right just because we did a giyur!

I may sound ungrateful, but I really am so thankful for all of the help we received. We just feel that now it is time to stand on our own two feet, so to speak, and be able to live without being under a microscope.

I hope this helps you, OP.

Anon because of personal info.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 2:10 pm
I'm the previous poster. I just wanted to add, regarding the 7 mitzvos of bnei noach, it just didn't satisfy us. We wanted more, we loved the depth and beauty of Judaism. I told my husband once, it feels too much like limbo. You're not Xtian, you're not Jewish, you don't really have a direction in life. Judaism offers so much more (even though I will admit that it is more difficult!) .
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:34 pm
Accidentally alienating occurs in all sorts of situations. As a person who has been involved in many converts journeys to yiddishkeit, I have seen some.

Such as a shabbos meal, where a unknowing fellow guest asks where you come from, where you grew up or tries to play jewish geography.

Or when someone comments on how jewish or not your children look, in complete ignorance of their actual heritage.

Or when you lose a parent, and don't sit shiva (some do).

Or when you don't have the background to a story, and someone else insists you must know that, everyone heard about x scandal.

Or people ask you your personal story, in public, not knowing that it may be private....

Lots of small opportunities to be sensitive, or not.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:35 pm
amother wrote:
This is how, back when my friend was dating they dated this person a bunch of times (shidduch style) and liked each other very much. When the potential FIL (who is a Rabbi) found out at that point that my friend is a convert (they shared it at that point, FFB adopted convert) he said "No Way! My child is not allowed to marry a convert!" And so they "had" to break up.

Hurts til this day, years and years later.


Are you sure the young man was not a Kohen? If so, he is forbidden Deoraita to marry a convert.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 7:34 pm
zaq wrote:
Are you sure the young man was not a Kohen? If so, he is forbidden Deoraita to marry a convert.


No, it was perfectly a go aside for bias.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:38 pm
yo'ma wrote:
Please explain to me how these two reasons are any different. I'm interested to learn how and why people become bt's and geirim, yes out of curiosity and to help me appreciate judiasm more. For me judiasm is not hard because I was brought that way, but in general it's not easy. There are so many laws. Why would someone want to obey all those laws no matter how much they believe especially when it comes to geirim because they can just keep the 7 laws of noach?


PSA: (not saying you do this but thought it should be said here)
Please!
1. Don't Use us to satisfy your curiosity/need to gossip/inner need to be a yenta. We are not elephants (no matter how pregnant!) in a zoo. Please stop staring.
2. We are not all willing to be your public chizuk. Not all are comfortable giving their "journey to judiasm" talk to the whole shul. Or to anyone. Some are just more private. Sometimes the reason is very personal. If you know me, on a close level, explain your need and then ask.
3. Treat me like every other Jew. No comments when my husband gets an Aliyah (assume his fathers name was Avraham... Or maybe the gabbai should be quieter at that point...). Don't ask which BD was used, if I knew anyone involved with Freundel etc.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 5:39 am
I agree with do much that's been said previously. As someone who is not white people always assume I'm a convert (which I am, but plenty Jewish people of color are not). I'll just point out some of my general do's and don'ts below.

Don't ask me my story, if I don't volunteer it , it means I'm not interested in sharing it.

I don't care if you find converts inspiring, and my story would give you chizzuk. If you want to be inspired go to a shuir.

I don't need you to teach or explain everything to me. If I have a question I'll ask. They make us study for a conversion, so you can assume I have somewhat of a clue.

Stop staring, I am not going to grow horns. It's rude and makes the object feel uncomfortable.

Don't say things about me in Yiddish or Hebrew and assume I don't understand.

Don't tell me how "special" you think I am and then treat me like a second class citizen (by not accepting my children in schools, not letting your kids play with mine, and/or not considering me or my kids in shidduchim).

Don't assume I have some crazy and wild past (I don't) and try and ferret it out of me. Too often people are looking to get some vicarious thrill out of me that doesn't exist. All non-Jews aren't swinging from the chandeliers regardless of what rabbis try to scare people with.

Do treat me the same way you treat every other FFB Jew. That's it. I just want to be considered and treated a Jew like everyone else. I spent years studying, changed my entire life, created serious tension in my very close and loving family, etc. to then be treated like a second class citizen after all that is beyond frustrating.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 6:04 am
I'm the OP.

First, I have to laugh because my father's ACTUAL hebrew name is Avraham LOL No boys in my family but that never even occurred to me about the Aliyah thing. And it would never if I heard it in shul.

Secondly, is this more of an issue in more right-wing communities? I feel like in the MO world that I live in, if you say you're a convert, and as I mentioned I don't know any in IRL, it would never occur to me ask you your "journey" - seems kind of...personal. I know plenty, plenty of MO people who went "OTD" (for lack of better way of putting it) in college or after and if they refer to that period in their life, it's in passing and no one gives it a second thought.

It wouldn't bother me for a second for my kids to marry yours, for my kids to play with yours, to eat in your house, etc. I don't ask for inspiration from random people, I go to events/conferences/shiurim to get that from people who volunteer it. Am I naive? I am not trying to minimize or make light of any convert's experience, I guess it would just never occur to me to behave that way.

I am sorry for any pain and hurt caused to anyone on this site, the alienation sounds terrible. Please know that some of us out there - taking part in perpetuating that bias is not even on our radar, really. Some of us believe all Jews are equal and it does not occur to us to behave or treat you differently.
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melalyse




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 6:47 pm
I don't know, it seems natural that when we meet someone that is different than us or have different circumstances we are interested in their story. I'm from NYC and I've always lived here. If I meet someone from Kansas I want to know about what life is like in Kansas, even more so if they lived in China. If someone tells me they have a father or a husband with an unusual profession, it is interesting to hear about it. If someone wants to know about a Ger's story, Usually they are just interested and want to connect. I would think that asking someone's story is davka "embracing the convert" by caring about where they came from and looking up to them.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 8:47 pm
melalyse wrote:
I don't know, it seems natural that when we meet someone that is different than us or have different circumstances we are interested in their story. I'm from NYC and I've always lived here. If I meet someone from Kansas I want to know about what life is like in Kansas, even more so if they lived in China. If someone tells me they have a father or a husband with an unusual profession, it is interesting to hear about it. If someone wants to know about a Ger's story, Usually they are just interested and want to connect. I would think that asking someone's story is davka "embracing the convert" by caring about where they came from and looking up to them.


But converts are saying exactly the opposite. You might be interested, but everything that is of someone's interest isn't their right to know. It's not embracing, it's a continual reminder that they're different. That they have a "past". It's a continual explanation and need to defend a very personal spiritual and life journey. You're treating someone like an oddity rather than just another member of the community. And consider that you're not the first person who wants to "care about where they come from and look up to them", it's every single person they encounter (if they're a person of color) or every person that finds out (if they're not). It's not the same thing as an unusual profession. It's a constant need to explain a very private thing for a very superficial reason. For example if a woman is a single mother, for me to inquire "oh what happened" even though I might be curious and her ability to continue to raise amazing children might be inspiring, but she doesn't owe me an explanation and would find it outright rude if I asked. why should I have to constantly justify my decision to become Jewish? I don't want you to look up to me, I want you treat me like a normal member of the frum community.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 9:29 pm
melalyse wrote:
I would think that asking someone's story is davka "embracing the convert" by caring about where they came from and looking up to them.


The halacha is that the convert is not to be reminded of their past.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 11:54 pm
Maybe the person from Kansas gets tired of telling the same story over and over again after a few decades of living in Oz. And maybe an interesting thing or two has happened since they moved.
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