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Ferguson murder began by victim walking in gutter? Wo!
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 10:59 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I think this statement may or may not be true. I don't want to call Darren Wilson a racist (and I am not), but statistically, this is more likely to happen to a black man.

Ignoring racial issues doesn't make them go away. It just dehumanizes Michael Brown.


Racial issues should not be ignored. Nor should they be a reason to indict a cop who acted in self defense.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:02 am
southernbubby wrote:
Ok, but let's ask this question. Does bias work both ways? For example can blacks be biased against another group such as Jews and use that bias in a way that is unfair or hurtful?


Of course.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:03 am
Barbara wrote:
WERE YOU THERE?

If you were, you can say that.

But unless you were there, your decision to completely ignore the half dozen or more witnesses who said THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN is cherry picking evidence.

But please, explain to me. ALMOST EVERY PERSON who saw Wilson said his hands were in the air. Some had different interpretations of the gesture. But all said in the air. Clearly Brown couldn't shoot with his hands in the air, especially since there was no gun. So why was Wilson in fear of being killed? Wilson had his big ol' police car right there. He could have gotten in and called for assistance.

He didn't. He chose to fire a dozen shots, hitting an unarmed suspect a half dozen or more times. And he'll never have to face a court of law to explain himself.


Were you there?

Most of the witnesses recanted their statements, admitted they were lying, admitted THEY WERENT EVEN THERE, or were proved unreliable. The analysis of the crime scene and the autopsy backed up Darren Wilson's statements. All of the evidence points to him acting upon the belief that it was his life or Michael browns life. He chose his own.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:05 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
Why is it a double standard? Maybe that's what they actually believe. I, for example, believe that although rubashkin may have been guilty of a crime, his punishment was a gross abuse of our justice system and was overly harsh. Many who know a lot more about our justice system and about his case specifically agree with me.

I also believe that Michael brown was killed because he assaulted a cop and not because he was black.

I also believe that many times blacks get harsher sentences then whites for the same crimes and that is wrong.

Which of these statements contradict each other or are double standards?


Do you think that in Rubashkin's case anti-semitism was involved? Do you think this was all Rubashkin's fault in that if he hadn't commited the crime, he wouldn't be in this situation in the first place? Do you think Jews are responsible for anti-semitism because they commit so many financial crimes?

Why do you rely on "many who know a lot more about our justice system" with Rubashkin but decline to adopt this same attitude when in comes to Ferguson?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:11 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
Were you there?

Most of the witnesses recanted their statements, admitted they were lying, admitted THEY WERENT EVEN THERE, or were proved unreliable. The analysis of the crime scene and the autopsy backed up Darren Wilson's statements. All of the evidence points to him acting upon the belief that it was his life or Michael browns life. He chose his own.


Please provide the name of each witness who admitted to lying about charging Michael Wilson, along with a citation to a mainstream media source (CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, NY Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Detroit Free Press, Wall Street Journal, Time, US News and World Report all acceptable), reporting the same.

Thanks.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:19 am
Look:

if you all feel that this case doesn't reflect any problems in police protocol or training, if you feel that there are generally no issues with racism when it comes to police using force, or if you go all the way to claim blacks are generally responsible for their own deaths, that's fine. That's your prerogative and you're entitled to your opinions.

I disagree and, although I don't know ( like everyone else) what really happened, I do think that when an officer kills an unarmed person (whether this guy or the 12 year old in our town, or another black officer as in NYC a few years back) because they automatically perceive the person to be more of a threat because of the victim's skin color- that's a problem. That's a problem society should address, and hiding your head in the sand is not a useful approach.

And yes, if we accept police discrimination against blacks, we also need to wholeheartedly accept discrimination agains Jews. If there's a shomrim conflict in Brooklyn and the cops immediately assume it's the Jews' fault, if there are riots in Crown Heights and the cops assume the Jews deserve it, if a Jewish boy is beat up by a gang and the cops assume the gang members were the victims - don't complain. Don't complain because you don't really worry when it comes to others' claims of bigotry, and no one is going to care about your claims.

Likewise, don't whine about harsher sentences for Jews and don't rant about anti semitic prosecutors and judges. Accept that Jews are their own worst enemies and any bigotry against them is their fault.


Last edited by marina on Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:22 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
Sorry, your post confused me. Are you saying that he didn't have the right to shoot at all?


I didn't opine on that.

As Marina said, I think that, had he been white, its far less likely that he would have been shot even if he had been charging at Wilson. And I think that it's extremely sad that the color of your skin often determines the justice you receive.

I think that I don't know what happened, except that the grand jury was a perversion of the US justice system. I think that there should have been a trial.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:24 am
Barbara wrote:
Please provide the name of each witness who admitted to lying about charging Michael Wilson, along with a citation to a mainstream media source (CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, NY Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Detroit Free Press, Wall Street Journal, Time, US News and World Report all acceptable), reporting the same.

Thanks.



I won't post every article I read. Type it into google and many will pop up. As for the names of the witnesses, I don't know if they were released, so I can't give you names, but many reliable media sources wrote articles about it. There was one main witness who was proven to by lying who's name I can give you: Dorian Johnson.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:25 am
I really hope no here thinks this was the cops' fault , this here incident. Clearly they did nothing wrong.

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=22176
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:30 am
marina wrote:
I really hope no here thinks this was the cops' fault , this here incident. Clearly they did nothing wrong.

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=22176


The article says that even the video shows that the thug "us[ed] an arm to push off the officer and break free." Clearly the officers felt threatened when a defendant did that. And how strong must that thug have been? The officers clearly deserve a commendation for not shooting him 6 times.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:32 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
I won't post every article I read. Type it into google and many will pop up. As for the names of the witnesses, I don't know if they were released, so I can't give you names, but many reliable media sources wrote articles about it. There was one main witness who was proven to by lying who's name I can give you: Dorian Johnson.


Actually, not a single article "popped up" in the mainstream media when I googled. Including any about Dorian Johnson. So since your google has all of these articles popping up all over, please enlighten me.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:33 am
You can see the video about Ehud, it is linked over there. It is very apparent to me, at least, that this hoodlum was fighting back. He punched the cops and resisted arrest.

What else do you expect when you attack the police? Like you said Barbara, I'm sure they felt threatened by this half-naked homeless guy.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:36 am
marina wrote:
You can see the video about Ehud, it is linked over there. It is very apparent to me, at least, that this hoodlum was fighting back. He punched the cops and resisted arrest.

What else do you expect when you attack the police? Like you said Barbara, I'm sure they felt threatened by this half-naked homeless guy.


I didn't see that, Marina. The police officers were clearly asking him to do something. I think they wanted to cuff him. If he had only done what they asked him to do, nothing would have happened. End of story.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:37 am
marina wrote:
Do you think that in Rubashkin's case anti-semitism was involved? Do you think this was all Rubashkin's fault in that if he hadn't committed the crime, he wouldn't be in this situation in the first place? Do you think Jews are responsible for anti-semitism because they commit so many financial crimes?

Why do you rely on "many who know a lot more about our justice system" with Rubashkin but decline to adopt this same attitude when in comes to Ferguson?


a) I have no idea if anti-semitism was involved but the judge was definitely biased. I have no idea if it was because he was a Jew or not, but the same judge who ordered the raid should not have been the same judge who sentenced him. She obviously had an agenda. Don't know if it was anti semitism, I never asked her.

b) If Rubashkin committed a crime, he is certainly at fault. If he did nothing wrong he wouldn't be in this situation. (hopefully.) How is that even a question?

c) I think that all Jews that commit crimes are helping to cause anti semitism. Yes, they will be held responsible. It's called chilul Hashem and it is a terrible sin.

d) I am not relying on them. I have my opinion and there are many more knowledgeable than me, that back it up.

When it comes to Ferguson, I actually did not have an opinion until many more knowledgeable analyzed the evidence and witness testimony. Based on their analysis, I have formed my opinion.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:43 am
Barbara wrote:
I didn't see that, Marina. The police officers were clearly asking him to do something. I think they wanted to cuff him. If he had only done what they asked him to do, nothing would have happened. End of story.


Barbara, look a little more closely. Clearly, you are cherry picking your facts. This violent Jew pushes the cops away. And when they are beating him in the corner, it looks to me like he is trying to fight back. Be a little more careful and don't jump to conclusions, Barbara.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 11:53 am
Last Monday, When the prosecutor was announcing there would not be an indictment he clearly stated that many of the witnesses who said they saw Michael brown surrendering with his hands up either retracted their testimony or stated that they weren't actually there but heard in the neighborhood that thats what happened. Here's what we know:

1. Michael Brown was a thug who in a matter of 30 minutes indisputably did the following: Robbed a convenience store, in the most arrogant way u could imaging. 2. got into a physical altercation with a police officer in his car. We know this because Michael Browns blood was found in officer Wilsons car.
Lets remember we r talking about a criminal here. Had he survived, he would have been chained to his hospital bed with 3 cops outside his room waiting for the doctor to allow his release to be taken to jail. Officer Wilson had never fired his weapon in 8 years. No I wasn't there, but I'm confident in taking the officers word as to how the events played out that day.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 12:03 pm
This next link clearly has nothing to do with racism. Clearly. But I thought I'd post here just as food for thought.

A few months ago a black cop in Ferguson hit a guy he felt threatened by with a baton. The cop was immediately suspended without pay and charged with second degree assault. He now faces upto 7 years in prison if found guilty.

Same town, same people. Nope, no discrimination here. http://uproxx.com/smokingsecti.....loch/


Last edited by marina on Mon, Dec 01 2014, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 12:06 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
Last Monday, When the prosecutor was announcing there would not be an indictment he clearly stated that many of the witnesses who said they saw Michael brown surrendering with his hands up either retracted their testimony or stated that they weren't actually there but heard in the neighborhood that thats what happened. Here's what we know:

1. Michael Brown was a thug who in a matter of 30 minutes indisputably did the following: Robbed a convenience store, in the most arrogant way u could imaging. 2. got into a physical altercation with a police officer in his car. We know this because Michael Browns blood was found in officer Wilsons car.
Lets remember we r talking about a criminal here. Had he survived, he would have been chained to his hospital bed with 3 cops outside his room waiting for the doctor to allow his release to be taken to jail. Officer Wilson had never fired his weapon in 8 years. No I wasn't there, but I'm confident in taking the officers word as to how the events played out that day.


This is the same prosecutor whom many attorneys, and certainly many prosecutors, have stated acted improperly.

I don't know if Michael Brown was a thug. I do know that even thugs have the right to a trial, not to be shot a half dozen times when they have their hands in the air.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 12:07 pm
marina wrote:
This next link clearly has nothing to do with racism. Clearly. But I thought I'd post here just as food for thought.

A few months ago a black cop in Ferguson hit a white guy he felt threatened by with a baton. The cop was immediately suspended without pay and charged with second degree assault. He now faces upto 7 years in prison if found guilty.

Same town, same people. Nope, no discrimination here. http://uproxx.com/smokingsecti.....loch/


But the guy was WHITE, so he clearly wasn't a "thug." Because we all know what "thug" means.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 01 2014, 12:20 pm
Marina and Barbara, I understand a lot more now about indictments, etc. Thank you for clarifying.
What can be done so that a group of people don't feel so impotent that all they can do in reaction is riot, and engage in truly self-destructive action? Not just self-destructive because of bad PR but because they're damaging their own infrastructure in the process?
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