Pulling child out of yeshiva

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Dec 01 2014, 4:29 pm

This may be a play for independence. He does not want to do it. He needs time to fantasize with his pillow and his dust bunny.

I think you should draw back a bit from controlling him. Let the school figure out how to educate him. That's their trade. They, ONE HOPES, have seen all styles of learners, and will get the point about how his mind is developing.

I truly think it might be time to butt out.

Your notion that he is manipulating is assuming bad motivation; well, you may be a little right: he may be digging his heels because you are being over-involved.

Your style may have worked fine for your other children, but this particular one may need a looser rein and be more of a creative, or independent nature.

Try pulling out altogether, with a friendly, NOT an angry mood, for two or three weeks. See what happens. You risk nothing. It can't get worse.

As for the therapist, privately tell the therapist to let the kid direct where the sessions go; this kid KNOWS THE MATERIAL and should not be punished for not doing exercises like a stenographer.

Between calling him lazy, manipulative, and driving him to tears, this isn't going well. Please be careful.

Anybody who cries about leaving yeshiva isn't done with yeshiva. No public school!

I advocated pulling a girl out of a school recently, on this forum, but she was behaving badly. This kid is not behaving badly. He just can't find the stam for writing assignments that grate on his inner ear in some way.

Ask your husband to see if he can find out what is grating.

A guy doesn't always want to talk about that kind of thing with a woman, especially his mom.

You mention the "lower track" and sound as if you have no love for the stigma of that.

Sometimes you have to take no nonsense, and sometimes you have to be flexible; this might be one of the times.

You work full time: you are used to an environment where people take care of business in a responsible way and you expect that. But this is a fifth grader. He's in another kind of thinking.

He may ALWAYS be your creative, your unusual one, and he may end up the most interesting of them all.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Mon, Dec 01 2014, 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

morah

Mon, Dec 01 2014, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

I'm only betting on the fact that there won't be the additional stress of LK homework or LK projects that come due. 6 subjects vs 10. I'm not saying there won't be struggles but once we're done with the English part there's no "brain switchover" to do Hebrew. But you're right there is no guarantee. Maybe I should try that for a week at school when I talk to the teachers - try the no hw/tests and see what happens.

I wouldn't count on PS solving this problem- it will bring on a new set of problems. In these days of Common Core and high stakes testing, PS kids are coming home with mountains of homework that is so difficult and confusing that the parents are too confused to help. And you will still be having him tutored in LK, which will eat up whatever time is saved by the shorter school day. I'm putting in anotjer vote for working seriously with the school.

granolamom

Mon, Dec 01 2014, 7:41 pm

I've pulled two kids out of yeshiva for similar reasons, but I'm able to homeschool.

fifth grade is still really young, young enough to still need playtime and downtime. young enough that the demands of homework after a day full of school might really be beyond his capacity.

I have worked out homework modifications with the teachers in the past. right now, my second grader is exempt from spelling homework and tests and does only half of math homework. he only does half of the homework his rebbe assigns as well. I've had other arrangements with other children depending on their needs.

I once had one of mine exempt from book reports. Another from social studies and science tests.

You are his mother. no one (aside from your dh) loves him as much as you do, and no one wants as much as you do for him to succeed in life. Its up to you to figure out what he needs and then to advocate for him. the school is providing you with a service, you have the right to (respectfully) modify the expectations and demands placed on him if you feel it is not to his benefit. I'm lucky, my boys yeshiva is very open to working with the parents, they dont walk around with their noses in the air telling parents that they are the pro's and know it all. If you have teachers who hearts are in the right places, appeal to their soft side. Let them know you value them and their lesson plans but your child is falling apart and needs some things changed. have some ideas ready but be willing to really listen to the teacher and to compromise. this doesnt have to be an all-or-none thing. hopefully you can make the yeshiva experience work for your son.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Dec 01 2014, 7:52 pm

One has to look at the goal. The goal is that the kid master the material. Exactly what drills will get to that goal are secondary. This particular kid may not need to do homework to master the material. Or anyway, to some extent.

The school shouldn't lose sight of the goal while on the way to the goal.

If the kid's head works so that he memorizes his own way, which he proves by testing well, the homework should not become a goal in and of itself.

amother

Mon, Dec 01 2014, 10:50 pm

To all the posters who've responded (and especially Dolly Welsh)- I truly appreciate all the support from everyone. I've been told many times that I am way too involved with the homework/projects of my kids. B'H, my older son never needed help with homework. He is the type to come home and sit and do his homework without prompting. Projects I know I become way too involved in. I've made Monet's out of macaroni in kindergarten!!
Dolly Welsh - from your post - I feel as though you *know* my kids. You nailed my parenting style right down! Rather than have my younger son face the consequences of handing in a book report on his level, I'll go in and fix it up. I know it's wrong and the therapist agrees that if there is a learning problem the school will never be aware of it b/c he's handing in decent work.

I think what's hard is to take a laid back approach. To sit back and say "ok, you don't want to do your hw tonight? Fine. See what the teacher says tomorrow. But that means no screen/tech time" and then have to deal with the tantrum (I'm sure behavior and tantrums are on another forum LOL

)

I'm going to talk to the school and see 1) how they've dealt with this in the past 2) what consequences there are for not doing assignments 3) what modifications (if any) can be done.

Not to sound negative, but when I originally reached out to the school special services department and told them about DS frustrations with all the work, her answer back to me was "sounds like he needs a study plan and I'll ask the teachers to help him". that was back in September. Never heard back from her and haven't heard from any teacher willing to help out. I reached out to one teacher to request his seat be changed to the front of the classroom so that he can focus better. Hasn't been done. So, my faith in the school doesn't go very far.

I did read some of the posts to my DH b/c I felt so loved and listened to for the first time in a very long time.

chani8

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 12:23 am

amother wrote:

I like that idea. But it's interesting - he's doing really well on the tests. It's the written homework that he can't manage. That's one of the things were working with the therapist on - getting him to do his work. Is it laziness, lack of motivation or he just can't do it. The tests are all memorizing which he's good at.

He's doing well on the tests, then he's totally fine. Lay off the homework!

Some of my kids never did their homework. Who cares! Let the teacher yell at him for the homework, and you tell him, 'meh, as long as you pass the class.' They give too much homework!. Most of it is busy work and a waste of time. Except math perhaps and special fun projects.

Why are you taking his schooling so serious? He's not lacking motivation at that age, he's getting pressured when he's just a normal acting (bright!) kid who doesn't want to be an A student. He's fine with imperfection and just passing. I've got a house full of people like that. Let your son be!

Last edited by chani8 on Tue, Dec 02 2014, 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 12:31 am

Really, yes, listen to Ma Belle Vie. You are bugging the wrong person. Leave the kid alone and bug the school.

Try to remember the goal. It has nothing to do with being Star Boy, it is to get the material into his head.

It is going in.

What more do you want?

I wouldn't even dock him screen time, if you let him use those icky gadgets in the first place.

If he knows the material, who cares?

If he doesn't want to learn it, do you think you can make him? Horse led to water, etcetera.

Enlist your husband's help in controlling your own urge, and it's about you, to look perfect at any cost.

That was very mean of me, and I humbly apologize.

I knew a man once, whose father, a carpenter, had finished a school carpentry project for the man, back when that man was a little boy. The father couldn't bear the crudeness of the boy's work.

That was one annoyed man. Please don't finish anybody's class projects. It is a copyright violation. It conveys "what you can do isn't good enough".

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Dec 02 2014, 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total

groisamomma

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 12:37 am

Look, OP has a point. I may not agree with sending him to p.s. but there is waaaay to much homework. This topic really ticks me off. My kids BH all do homework themselves but I often stop any of my DDs after 15 mins of Hebrew and English homework and sign their homework sheet with a bold red note stating this is a LOT of homework for a second/third/fourth grader and 15 mins is more than enough, thank you. Only once has a teacher ever made a snide comment to DD that if she does so well on tests why does her mother complain about too much homework all the time? Um, she's nine years old. These kids need a life. They need time to play and be kids. You can bet I let her know that the next time I saw her. End of rant.

Definitely call the principal. You can even mention that conversations in the past have led nowhere (seat change, etc) so you don't feel like talking to the teacher. Tell him or her (don't ask, tell) that you are setting a timer for the amount of time DS can do homework. Anything not completed after that time should be taken up with you, not DS.

Good luck, OP!

amother

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 7:13 am

amother wrote:

I agree with you that pulling him out will be a severe detriment to his self esteem. He overheard us talking about it last night and it just broke him into tears to think that we would pull him out (even with the thought of not having to do the LK!). I have mixed feelings about him not having to do the work that everyone has to do bc to me it's a form of manipulation on his part (if I am going on the assumption that there are no learning issues, etc). Deep down I think he just really doesn't want to *do* the work and would rather play. But eventually that kind of thinking has to stop and he has to face the consequences. But where are the consequences? Yeshivas don't have detention. I have yet to see any sort of consequence for any type of behavior that is not physical (that's another subject entirely!). What's the worst that will happen if he doesn't do his work? I think I've asked and they haven't left anyone back for not completing their homework. He *gets it* in class but can't get it when it comes to homework. Take away tv and iPod and screen time? He'll play with a pillow and a dust bunny!

How long is his day? Maybe there is nothing wrong with him just playing? I work in a public school that goes from 8 to 4 and sometimes 5. You bet we mostly don't give any homework.

What if you make a deal with the teacher to treat the homework is an assignment in college, I.e. up until some deadline. This way he will have a longer span to do them, but will have to do them anyway.
I don't understand you reasoning about "what everyone else is doing". You have a special problem and you cannot treat him "like everyone else".

amother

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 8:28 am

So taking all these points to heart (and I am not offended by any if them btw) -

I KNOW I'm not supposed to *do* their projects. I enjoy doing them and helping them; sometimes though my hand gets a little too involved when I see that they are not completing it fully (I know I should just let them hand it in as is but it's hard for me). My husband tells me all the time to back off but I fight him on it.

I'm sure it goes back to when I was a kid and no one helped me with my hw and I handed in poor work and learned poor study habits and did poorly in school. I don't want that for him. I feel that I missed out on a lot in school because I didn't have anyone helping me and pushing me to do my work correctly. My parents didn't care how well my work was only that I tried my best. They knew I wasn't as smart as my brother (who is an actual genius) and just let me get by as long as I was happy about my grades. I feel that I missed out on colleges that I wanted to go to and opportunities that I could've had had I done better in school. To me if he doesn't learn certain good habits now by the time he wakes up and learns them and realizes that he needs good study and hw habits it'll be too late - like it was for me. I figured it out about my sophomore/junior year in HS and by then I couldn't undo my former years.

Interestingly at PT conferences his English teacher mentioned someone in the class who doesn't hand in assignments. She's talked to him etc. And she said she told him "look, if you don't care then I don't care". I'm not sure how that sits with me.

Amount if time for hw? Each teacher says my hw shouldn't take more than 20 minutes. He has 4 teachers that teach a range of 7-8 subjects. On a given night he may have hw in 3 subjects (math, Chumash, and one other). That's 60 minutes. On a good night the hw takes half an hour.

I read some of the posts to my husband and I said "who's to say if we put him in ps we won't have the same problems with hw as well as other problems? He still won't want to do hw?" His answer was he won't have the stress of having the dual curriculum weighing him down. But he also said we should talk to the school. I'm going to take these posts with me when I go!!

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 9:26 am

So you realize you are one hundred percent blinded by your own history when looking at this kid. You say that clearly.

You, a religious Jew, would rather see your kid in a secular setting, than ease up on your expectations that he master the material in the approved manner.

A school is there to serve. It is like going to a wedding where a lot is on offer: lots of different foods. You are not required to eat everything at the smorgasbord. You are required to be a full participant in the occasion according to your particular stomach.

The teacher's remark was snotty and you are echoing her.

I am going to affirm that not every child is the same.

As your family has access to therapy I am going to wonder if you would take a session or two yourself. I am not calling you crazy, but it might be useful to talk out some of the goings-on here.

The only sound I hear is the kid crying.

The kid is crying because he has overheard his parents talking about taking him out of the school.

As for your own life, you have a nice husband and at least two wonderful kids and adequate means so I am not so sure what opportunities you missed.

Your understandable envy of your genius sibling is just that: ENVY, and that's against the Tenth Commandment.

A kid who has the imagination to play with a pillow and a dust bunny will go far in life.

And, it's not as if your kid isn't learning the material. You say he passes the tests.

What is he like as a person?

?"?????????

Has anybody wondered?

rosenbal

Tue, Dec 02 2014, 9:58 am

OP, I really think you need to lay off his homework! Why are you doing your kids' hw? Trust me, the teachers are not interested and it's not doing your kids any favors.

Your job is to have supplies available and space and structure for HW. You need to help with kriya and chumash/gemara chazara sometimes. Test them on spelling. Some kids need more and generally that's because of ADHD or LD.

One of my kids is ADHD and it used to be really hard. Now with meds and practicing good habits while on meds it's much better but I don't DO it for /with him (except some of the things I mentioned above). Yes, sometimes I offer adaptations (just match, don't write whole sentances etc and since I've had discussions with the teachers they'll understand why I said this).

Would his HW be better if I was involved more and edited and gave ideas and made him write neater etc? Heck, yeah but I DID 6th grade already. Now it's HIS turn.

Maybe your DS is stressed over HW because he needs to do it all to your perfectionistic standard?! Be there as a source of support if he really needs it and let (or make) him stop after a certain reasonable amount of time and effort gets put in and that's it. It's done for the night. He doesn't need to get A's.

My DD who's very independent wanted help with her book report. So I helped but I refused to dictate sentences to her. I gave her some ideas because she was feeling very stuck. I also gave her some feedback on some of her writing that she read out loud to me but the teacher will find a ton of mistakes (this was a first draft) and will give my DD pointers on where her ideas or English was off and she'll have to correct it. Thats the point of first drafts. She's learning the writing process. What's the problem...that's what's supposed to happen, shes not supposed to hand in MY edited writing.

Being such a helicopter mom would not help my DD or DS be more independent or responsible. I do make sure there is set HW time and that generally speaking it is getting done, but I'm not involved in the minutia. They're still in elementary schook so I ask what's your hw tonight. It is my job to make sure their little siblings don't bother them. Make sure I don't allow computer time till after HW. Have a snack ready after school. Be available to test them if needed. Have supplies available. Sign HW if needed. Maybe ask them before they go off to play "is all your HW in your bagpack?" (Certainly my adhd kid! Or the teachers would never see his hw LOL!)