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Boss asks me innapropriate questions but is it stupidity?
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:28 am
Heyaaa wrote:
He's creepy. I would've found another job.


Women have to quit every time we get harassed?? Sorry, but it never ends.

I hope you get good results from your conversation with him, OP.

I am sad that you dulled down your appearance because of him. Your dress did not cause this. He's got the mind of a rapist and no matter if you wear turtlenecks in the summer, he's going to harass you.

I hope he got scared straight.
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chickpea_salad




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 5:44 am
Chani8- "the mind of a rapist" is a pretty tall charge. OP still has to work with this man. If someone had said that to me I would now think "rapist" every time I saw the man.

OP- there is a scale that is used to assess harassment and violence, I forget what it is called. On one end you have "cultural' things that might not be seen as harassment by the participants, and on the other end you have violent assault & death. In between the two you have varying degrees of verbal and physical abuse or neglect. The goal of the scale is to identify and stop behaviors because they can easily progress down the scale to more and more serious issues.

So when you hear people talking about "rape culture", which I think is what Chani8 was getting at, they are talking about a general cultural acceptance of behaviors leading up to and, g-d forbid, including rape.

Right now you have passed the point where you are unaware of what is going on, and it *sounds* like he *might* be aware of what he is doing. This means you have identified a problem on the scale, and if you have talked to him that means you are attempting to get him to stop this behavior before it progresses.

Hopefully that will be enough to resolve the issue.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 6:27 am
I think she should 'think rapist' every time she has to interact with him, and be ready to deal with him as such, because in my experience, these guys don't change. They shut up for about 10 minutes. They sometimes even stop the s-xual stuff. But then they get mean. And start harassing in other ways, like religiously. That's just my unfortunate experience, though. I hope for OP things go better.
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vicki




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:16 am
chani8 wrote:
I think she should 'think rapist' every time she has to interact with him, and be ready to deal with him as such, because in my experience, these guys don't change. They shut up for about 10 minutes. They sometimes even stop the s-xual stuff. But then they get mean. And start harassing in other ways, like religiously. That's just my unfortunate experience, though. I hope for OP things go better.

I agree with Chani8. He certainly knows what he is doing. For goodness' sake he asked her if she shaves her pubic area !! And discussed viagra with her. And now, once the cat is out of the bag and she is still hanging around it will not get better.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:38 am
I"m sorry if this is inappropriate to post here - maybe it will inject some humor.

I work in industry where we worked with Viagara in a technical setting about 9 years ago [when it was still newish]. We were in a meeting discussing our test setup and one older guy (a foreigner) mentioned "He really wants to start taking it but his wife won't let, what should he tell her". Everyone was like "EWW", "C'MON", "TMI", "Way Too Much information" . I don't think he realized he overstepped any bounds. But this was also a different setting.

I think the way you are describing it is it inappropriate, and with all the other discussions it raises a lot of red flags.
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kol_yom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:57 am
amother wrote:
Just spoke with him. Let's see how it works.


I am sure now that you told him you will be able to assess his behavior according to how he reacted when you spoke to him....wish you luck!
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:57 am
amother wrote:
I"m sorry if this is inappropriate to post here - maybe it will inject some humor.

I work in industry where we worked with Viagara in a technical setting about 9 years ago [when it was still newish]. We were in a meeting discussing our test setup and one older guy (a foreigner) mentioned "He really wants to start taking it but his wife won't let, what should he tell her". Everyone was like "EWW", "C'MON", "TMI", "Way Too Much information" . I don't think he realized he overstepped any bounds. But this was also a different setting.

I think the way you are describing it is it inappropriate, and with all the other discussions it raises a lot of red flags.


It's not the same thing at all. It is always inappropriate every time, for an office colleague to ask his female coworker any of these questions. It doesn't matter the context and if it came because she brought it up (although that doesn't seem to be the case) then the entire conversation is inappropriate even if she has some blame. It is especially inappropriate if he pretends to be ultra-orthodox, as the super religious are supposed to try to be social prudes.
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lakewood mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:38 am
She said he's ultra orthodox. I'm going to say something that may upset ppl, but I'll try to say it the nicest way possible. Many chassidish men who were brought up sheltered and suddenly exposed to a new world don't know their boundaries. Everything is black and white to them- whereas there's more gray in the litvish world. They're not trying to be inappropriate, but they don't necessarily know better. Also, they may feel that once they're working/talking to other women (which is considered a "black" thing- there's no difference if they discuss her waxing preferences. They're no longer in the "white zone" so no rules apply.)
Ppl who grow up with lots of gray- understand that there are differences in what's allowed, social norms, and harassment. I've worked with some chassidish men in the past and was shocked with what came out of their mouths- I realized it was out of ignorance- not maliciousness. There was no shame whatsoever when I discovered all the sites he would visit on my computer. If he can talk to me- "a fremda froi"- what's the difference if he's looking at [filth].
I know this sounds extreme, but I've seen this time and time again. I'm kit bashing or generalizing- im talking about my observations and the observations of others.
Just something to keep in mind.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:10 am
I have a chasidish husband. and for anything in the world he wouldnt say those things to any women in the world. . I think this guy crossed boundaries. poster above if what your saying is true which isnt, then your making us seem like idiots. and thats far from the truth. thanks

I was so upset about what above poster wrote about chasidish guys, I have to edit my post.


Last edited by sourstix on Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:23 am
sourstix wrote:
I have a chasidish husband. and for anything in the world he wouldnt say those things to any women in the world. obviously his wife is something else. I think this guy is either sick or pervert. if what your saying is true which isnt, then your making us seem like idiots. and thats far from the truth. thanks


What Lakewood mom stated does sometimes occur. It is definitely not always the case and has a lot to do with how you were raised. It would make neither you nor your husband seem like idiots at all.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:28 am
scrabble123-few and far apart. I guess its the same way with anyone in the world.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:38 am
My ( open minded) chassidishe husband has also seen that inappropriate behavior with Some of his co- workers. Some truly cannot handle the sudden exposure to the real world and to women, and end up harassing the women because they just don't know how or what to say and when to stop. It's really awful for the women.
My husband has tried to intervene and coach some of these men, but they often deny their misbehavior, or say ok ok but don't stop.
Anon because I've discussed this IRL.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:43 am
This unfortunately happens in the yeshivish world as well with frum women and men. Sometimes instead of talking with each other they flirt or don't have good boundaries and don't realize what they are doing at all. Its all a result of being very sheltered.
Similar to the story with the foreign guy above. They are foreigners to their current situation. but that does not make it okay or acceptable.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:46 am
sourstix wrote:
scrabble123-few and far apart. I guess its the same way with anyone in the world.


Not few and far apart, and it is not the same with the real world. In the secular world people are ethical because there are morals. People who base them on the Torah without understanding reasoning behind them as well as the difference between a chumra, a minhag, a derysa, a derabunen, etc. have difficulties when they cross one. That does not apply to everyone, but it's a bigger issue than you think. I also have experienced it with many women. It is not the same way with anyone in the world because circumstances are different. Others in the world have their own issues. Don't minimize something because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Every society has issues: those issues do not reflect on every individual in the society; similar an individuals issues do not reflect on a society, but I do believe that the issue being discussed here (Not the OP, just what Lakewoodmom brought up) is a society issue v. an individual issue.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:47 am
lakewood mom wrote:
She said he's ultra orthodox. I'm going to say something that may upset ppl, but I'll try to say it the nicest way possible. Many chassidish men who were brought up sheltered and suddenly exposed to a new world don't know their boundaries. Everything is black and white to them- whereas there's more gray in the litvish world. They're not trying to be inappropriate, but they don't necessarily know better. Also, they may feel that once they're working/talking to other women (which is considered a "black" thing- there's no difference if they discuss her waxing preferences. They're no longer in the "white zone" so no rules apply.)
Ppl who grow up with lots of gray- understand that there are differences in what's allowed, social norms, and harassment. I've worked with some chassidish men in the past and was shocked with what came out of their mouths- I realized it was out of ignorance- not maliciousness. There was no shame whatsoever when I discovered all the sites he would visit on my computer. If he can talk to me- "a fremda froi"- what's the difference if he's looking at [filth].
I know this sounds extreme, but I've seen this time and time again. I'm kit bashing or generalizing- im talking about my observations and the observations of others.
Just something to keep in mind.


Please don't spread ridiculous ideas. This man is a sick pervert. It has nothing to do with his religion (or lack of).
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:51 am
Scrabble123 wrote:
Not few and far apart, and it is not the same with the real world. In the secular world people are ethical because there are morals. People who base them on the Torah without understanding reasoning behind them as well as the difference between a chumra, a minhag, a derysa, a derabunen, etc. have difficulties when they cross one. That does not apply to everyone, but it's a bigger issue than you think. I also have experienced it with many women. It is not the same way with anyone in the world because circumstances are different. Others in the world have their own issues. Don't minimize something because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Every society has issues: those issues do not reflect on every individual in the society; similar an individuals issues do not reflect on a society, but I do believe that the issue being discussed here (Not the OP, just what Lakewoodmom brought up) is a society issue v. an individual issue.


Not disagreeing that ultra chassidish, yeshivish might cross boundaries because of confusion between Halacha and chumra, etc... But there is crossing boundaries and being too flirtatious, and then there is asking a co worker if she shaves her pubic hair. Please don't confuse the two.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:53 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
Not disagreeing that ultra chassidish, yeshivish might cross boundaries because of confusion between Halacha and chumra, etc... But there is crossing boundaries and being too flirtatious, and then there is asking a co worker if she shaves her pubic hair. Please don't confuse the two.


Mommy2bc. Please don't confuse two different posts. I never said that this applies to the OP, and I in fact wrote in my post that it does not apply to the OP. Please read entire threads and posts before commenting. I was expounding on something posted by Lakewoodmom.

Scrabble123 wrote:
(Not the OP, just what Lakewoodmom brought up)
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lakewood mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:57 am
Sourstix- I prefaced my post by saying I had no intention to hurt anyone and im sorry if you were in the process. I also concluded by saying that my observations were not a generalization. But to you and the poster above- please read the comments after mine of others amothers agreeing with me.
I was not bashing chassidim or the very sheltered. Rather, the opposite- I was justifying the misbehavior of those who were raised sheltered and don't know how to handle their freedom. Obviously, this doesn't happen to everyone. I was merely offering the OP an understanding to where her boss may be coming from. And yes, as one poster said- that she knows some men need coaching in this area- I have heard the same. There are men who "professionally" advise these type of ppl how to behave.
Again, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I was hoping to excuse a certain type of ppl.
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MomTu




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:29 am
Lakewoodmom, you are retracting your original post! In there, you made it abundantly clear that Chassidish men that go out in the business world, usually have issues dealing with women.
That is not true!
The type of work I do has proven otherwise.
We create fundraising events, and I come into contact with men, from Chassidish, to yeshivish, and even nonreligious.
Their behavior towards me is not reflective of any one sect, rather on individual nature....
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amother


 

Post Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:31 am
OP here. Another issue is that since I'm divorced he doesn't feel like these things are against halacha, and he doesn't have concepts of ethics and what is socially appropriate or not. I do feel that they are against halacha, but I have encountered this misconception often. I just hope that what we discussed will help. I told him that if he wouldn't want his wife or friends to hear what he is saying to me, then he is not allowed to discuss it with me either.
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