boss asks me innapropriate questions but is it stupidity?

mommy3b2c

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:40 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

I missed the part that you were specifically saying that you weren't talking about op.

To clarify, were you saying that being raised very sheltered can cause confusion with boundaries, but that ops case is extreme, and that guy is sick pervert?

If that's what you're saying, we are an agreement.

Lakewood mom was trying to explain why the ops co worker would behave in appropriately, though.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:48 am

OP here. It's definitely boundary crossing, but the person kind of doesn't know what I'm speaking about when I tell him it's inappropriate. When he wants to high-five me and I tell him that I cannot do that he says, "But you're not married," and I said "It has nothing to do with me being married or not. It is against halacha for me to high-five you and even morally without halacha in mind, I do not want to high five you." He then asks me to tell him where it says that in halacha. Honestly, I don't want to get into a discussion about the differences between an aishes aish and a nidda and about the differences between a high five and a hug etc. etc. He honestly sometimes really does not know what I'm speaking about. He is like this in business as well (not with women just with not understanding certain social norms in business).

I've experienced perverts, non Jews or Secular Jews who are not familiar with halacha, Ultra-Orthodox people who are confused about what I wrote about before, etc. etc. I haven't experienced yet what I am with this man and it is puzzling to me. Sometimes I feel like he wants something from me and other times I feel like he just doesn't even know how crazy and perverted he sounds. I'm very logically and not emotionally so when he asks me a question I have no problem answering since I just look at it entirely scientifically, but I will not because logically if I do I'll end up in deeper trouble with this guy because he probably did not mean it academically.

I edited this to stay anonymous to future browsers/readers.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:51 am

Can we please differentiate between men who are pigs, and men who think the way to "network" and build a business is by flirting?

The difference is in intention.

Most of the chassidish men who act inappropriately are not doing it because they want to develop a personal relationship with the woman in question; they just think they are building a professional relationship by being friendly. When they leave the workplace, they do not give a second thought to the women they talked to. Because they were raised to never talk to women, they don't know where talking ends and flirting begins. Coaching would work wonders in these cases.

OP's boss is simply a predator. His conversations are not flirtatious, they are overstepping all boundaries. My female friends do not ask me if I shave "down there"!!!!

mommy3b2c

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 12:32 pm

amother wrote:

This explains the difference very well.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:58 pm

Ah, but now that OP has told us she's divorced, it is, unfortunately, a horse of a different color.

Unfortunately, and unfairly, many men think that divorced women are available and will flirt beyond boundaries to see what they can accomplish.

This probably has to do with the fact that a. they're not married b. they have no husband to serve as protector c. they have been married and therefore have experience.

So now I think OP has to be triply careful, because if she were married the pig would have some fear of a husband getting angry. He really may be trying to start something and OP has to make very very firm boundaries.

naturalmom5

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 4:24 pm

lakewood mom wrote:

She said he's ultra orthodox. I'm going to say something that may upset ppl, but I'll try to say it the nicest way possible. Many chassidish men who were brought up sheltered and suddenly exposed to a new world don't know their boundaries. Everything is black and white to them- whereas there's more gray in the litvish world. They're not trying to be inappropriate, but they don't necessarily know better. Also, they may feel that once they're working/talking to other women (which is considered a "black" thing- there's no difference if they discuss her waxing preferences. They're no longer in the "white zone" so no rules apply.)
Ppl who grow up with lots of gray- understand that there are differences in what's allowed, social norms, and harassment. I've worked with some chassidish men in the past and was shocked with what came out of their mouths- I realized it was out of ignorance- not maliciousness. There was no shame whatsoever when I discovered all the sites he would visit on my computer. If he can talk to me- "a fremda froi"- what's the difference if he's looking at [filth].
I know this sounds extreme, but I've seen this time and time again. I'm kit bashing or generalizing- im talking about my observations and the observations of others.
Just something to keep in mind.

I am going to wholeheartedly agree with LM and give the female side
I see constantly on Imamother as well as IRL in Lakewood , particularly among yeshivish ladies under 30; this isn't appropriate and that isn't appropriate .
This creates a sort of boy who cried wolf environment
It unfortunately escalates into many of the stories we read about here and witness

Learning

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:07 pm

amother wrote:

OP here. Another issue is that since I'm divorced he doesn't feel like these things are against halacha, and he doesn't have concepts of ethics and what is socially appropriate or not. I do feel that they are against halacha, but I have encountered this misconception often. I just hope that what we discussed will help. I told him that if he wouldn't want his wife or friends to hear what he is saying to me, then he is not allowed to discuss it with me either.

I can't believe he told you this twisted reason. Even though you are divorced it is against halacha. He is brainwashing you to think that since you are divorced you are hefker and everybody can talk dirty to you. This is not true but regardless to halacha this is disgusting and leading to him saying that he can have zex with you because you are not married. I would just be mean and rude to him especially when he talks dirty. He needs to lose any pleasure from talking to you. It's almost as if he is using you instead of calling a zex line. Dont engage in any conversation with him. He is not open for discussing his behavior. He wants to use you for his prevented pleasure. I don't think he is sincere with the divorced reason he gave you. It is just outrageous and sick. Tape him and tell him you will give it to his wife if he dare to talk that way to you again. Tell him anyway that you will tell his wife. Don't let him dare to say anything to you.

zaq

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:47 pm

OP, your boss is stupid like a fox. He is also a skunk. He knows exactly what he is doing. There is no earthly reason for him to bringing up the subjects he is bringing up. You know it and he knows it. You said he is frum? Then kal vachomer he knows what he is doing. You have put him in his place several times and yet he persists. Contrary to what Learning beieves, his age and marital status are irrelevant. He is in a position of authority over you and he is abusing it.

You should be looking for a different job AND filing a s*xual harrassment complaint against him with Equal Employment Opportunity or your state Division of Human Rights. If not for your own sake then for the sake of the next innocent woman who goes to work for him. Please, keep a log of every interaction: dates, times, what he said or did and what you said or did. You will need this documentation to prove your case. The man is a slimebucket and should not be allowed to get away with his disgusting behavior.

sourstix

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 7:59 pm

[quote="Scrabble123"]What Lakewood mom stated does sometimes occur. It is definitely not always the case and has a lot to do with how you were raised. It would make neither you nor your husband seem like idiots at all.[/quote]ou
common you know this has nothing to do with how you were raised this has to do with common sense.
what else are pp gonna throw on their parents? . if hes married then I feel bad for his wife. who knows what else is up his sleeve.

sourstix

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:03 pm

[quote="amother"]My ( open minded) chassidishe husband has also seen that inappropriate behavior with Some of his co- workers. Some truly cannot handle the sudden exposure to the real world and to women, and end up harassing the women because they just don't know how or what to say and when to stop. It's really awful for the women.
My husband has tried to intervene and coach some of these men, but they often deny their misbehavior, or say ok ok but don't stop.
Anon because I've discussed this IRL.[/quote]

then there is something missing with these pp. they need help and real fast. dh is also openminded chasidish and came from just as sheltered a place like all of them and wouldnt think of saying it. I think there is something wrong with these pp. I am sorry for being harsh its jmho

sourstix

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:09 pm

[quote="Scrabble123"]Not few and far apart, and it is not the same with the real world. In the secular world people are ethical because there are morals. People who base them on the Torah without understanding reasoning behind them as well as the difference between a chumra, a minhag, a derysa, a derabunen, etc. have difficulties when they cross one. That does not apply to everyone, but it's a bigger issue than you think. I also have experienced it with many women. It is not the same way with anyone in the world because circumstances are different. Others in the world have their own issues. Don't minimize something because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Every society has issues: those issues do not reflect on every individual in the society; similar an individuals issues do not reflect on a society, but I do believe that the issue being discussed here (Not the OP, just what Lakewoodmom brought up) is a society issue v. an individual issue.[/quote]

I dont know it to be an issue in the society I am in. I just asked dh. and he says that it all has to do with common sense. so I guess some chasidishe men dont have common sense. or they were sheltered alot more then dh. I just dont understand why these men when they have these questions dont first ask their male friends. find out if its appropriate at all. or look it up there are so many places to do that. instead of making a fool out of yourself.

Scrabble123

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:31 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

To clarify, were you saying that being raised very sheltered can cause confusion with boundaries, but that ops case is extreme, and that guy is sick pervert?

If that's what you're saying, we are an agreement.

Lakewood mom was trying to explain why the ops co worker would behave in appropriately, though.

Yes, sorry for the confusion.

mom2dkay

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:11 pm

lakewood mom wrote:

Does ultra orthodox always equal CHASSIDISH?
You ARE generalizing.