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-> Parenting our children
amother
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 Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:38 am
We live in Brooklyn, where kindergarten starts at age 3/4. My 2.5 yo (almost 3yo) DS was born 11 days after the cutoff for all the schools that we are considering sending him to.
In my very unbiased opinion  he is very bright. He knows all of the aleph-bais and some nekudos, all of the ABCs, etc. He is verbal and social; currently he is (by accident) the youngest in a playgroup that includes kids turning 4 and doing very well.
DH and I don't see the 11 days after the cutoff as a big reason to keep him back another year (and the schools actually agreed) but everyone that we talk to views "pushing him ahead" as a terrible horrible no good very bad thing to do to our child.
Thoughts?
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:45 am
I'm also curious what people think on this topic. In my neighborhood different schools have different cut offs and my child either misses it or makes it depending on the school. I spoke to two teachers who met my child -- one says to push ahead and let my kid be the youngest and one says it's better to be the oldest.
In any case, both agreed that the consideration should not be whether your child can hack it educationally -- it's more a decision of whether the child is socially and emotionally able to hack it as the youngest.
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Scrabble123
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:52 am
I don't know what to say from a parent's perspective, but I graduated High School at 17 years old (Birthday is in October). There were kids who were older than me in younger grades. My brother is a January baby and my mother initially held him back, but he skipped 8th grade and also graduated High School at 17. My cousins have the same birthdays (October & December) and one was pushed forward and one was held back because he was a 23 week old preemie so the mother felt it would be best for him to be held back. Anyways, at this point it would have probably been better had he been pushed forward, but he's not planning on skipping.
In the frum world a lot of people don't want to push forward because they are afraid that the kids will graduate and have all of their peers married, making them feel isolated and lonely. I have two frum friends that graduated High School at 16. It was fantastic for them and they really benefitted, although one did make some slight mistakes (but that is only human and may be a result of her household upbringing more than being pushed 2 years ahead).
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:53 am
Ask your child's teacher this year.
My daughter is the youngest in her grade (middle of november) The cutoff is December but it looks like it is in style to hold back.
Her morah last year told me I could not hold her back. Socially and academically she was doing very well. b'h I think it was the correct decision.
This point in the year is still hard to know for sure. I was advised to apply with everyone else if I was unsure because later in the year no one will take her even she is ready. If I change my mind I can always tell them I'd like to push off acceptance until next year. Where I live is hard to get into schools so in some ways the schools are grateful for the extra slot.
You could also choose to have him evaluated to be 100% sure.
Good luck with your decision.
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:00 am
I'm going through the same dilemma, my daughter is 3 days after the cut off date. My sister who has the exact same birthday as her was pushed up, and sailed through school, academically and socially. My daughter is currently in a class of children who would all be the grade older than her, and is more than holding her own, doing better than lots of those kids. Emotionally she is doing well, of course she cries, but not more than any of the other kids in her class, and less that some older kids we know, and she is very verbal, able to express more than just "I want" or facts, but ask about other's emotions, express hers, etc.
I spoke to a teacher, who said it's not so much how much knowledge they have at this age, because that can change. Did you sit with your child and teach them those things, and yes, he is bright obviously, because not all kids his age would get it if taught...a child may know more facts at this age, but then struggle later on.
But the indication of how well a child will do later on is more in his/her general learning style/attitude to life. Does he/she just "get" things, have a constant thirst for seeing/doing, and is the general attitude one of "I can do it" even if no one showed them (and they sometimes get it wrong, but they tried, instead of not even bothering).
My oldest is youngest in his class (in the right grade), taught himself alef beis and some nekudos by watching a lamdeni dvd - it was his favorite for a while, and he picked it up himself. By the time we caught on and my husband said we may as well sit and show them to him, he already knew most of the alef beis.
My daughter who we're now debating about, has always been the child who said "I don't know how to do it YET" (her exact words), not "I can't".
I was a middle of the year baby, and was easily top of the class, getting 99% percent regularly without reviewing once, while the girls just behind me academically would get 95-98% after a couple of hours of studying. As a result, I developed very lazy learning habits, which I now feel have held me back from learning more. Therefore, I do not want my daughter to be the oldest in the class, and being naturally bright she will be top of the class by a significant gap, and will not feel the need to work hard or push herself. I'd rather she's the youngest in the class and has to work harder, even if she does not always get the top grade. Now I have to see if the school will work with me, since most schools here now always keep the kids in the correct grade.
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rosenbal
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:26 am
All myk ids are by the cut off! Ahh , I feel for you! One is the oldest in his class, is absolutely brilliant (just short of genius literally) but I'm so glad he's the oldest...he's not really mature socially. One is the youngest and she's very smart (not brilliant) but is at the top of her class and totally fits in socially. BH. Interesting that they are both officially in their correct grades without me pushing or holding back. I guess Hashem helped me.
My youngest is 3 days after the cut off. We'll probably just have him in the correct grade and hope it works. He's also really smart but I agree with all of those that think it's not academics but social/emotional issues that are the most important. He's socially great but he plays nicely with younger kids too so I think he'll be fine as the oldest.
I am a bit biased against being the oldest since I was the oldest and hated it that there were some younger kids than me in the grade ahead! I'm trying to not let that bias me in my decisions. And someone e above mentioned, it is the thing and the general thinking now that in cases like this it's usually better to be older.
One morethong...it's good to see what the class make up will be. Sometimes it's an older class or a younger class and that can help you decide if your child will be way older or way younger than everyone else.
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questioner
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:40 am
Dealing with some issues like this myself.
One big factor that can't be discounted is the propensity for holding children back. IOW, is your son the youngest by 11 days, or do most boys for a month or two before that get hold back so that he will be the youngest by much more? If officially the deadline is Dec. 30 or whenever but unofficially 90% of children from Sept-Dec get hold back, he will be effectively the youngest by much more + be in a class with boys over 15 months older then him
If I ever run a school, I would highly recommend / insist evaluating all children within 2 months of the deadline in either direction
Last edited by questioner on Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:45 am
OP here.
The above point (how many students will be held back, so will he end up the youngest by 3 months?) is what concerns me most, I think.
It's hard for me to gauge his personality as per other posters. To me it seems as though his frustration level is a bit low, but his teachers say that he behaves beautifully and he is fully keeping up with the class (and c'mon, he's a 2 year old, of course he tantrums sometimes). He was partially taught aleph bais, partially picked up from an older sibling. It is really hard for me to project how he will fit in socially in a few years from now!
(If it makes any difference, I was the youngest in my class and had no problems. I also had several academically advanced family members who ended up skipping and I do not wish that on my children. If it comes to that, I'd rather start him off earlier.)
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:48 am
I posted as amother earlier about pushing my child "ahead". [Before the cutoff but oldest in the grade. ]
Others mentioned the emotional impact - I had forgotten that.
When I was talking to her teacher this year she mentioned that academically and socially she is doing great. And the she added emotionally as well. She said sometimes for the youngest they can keep up but emotionally aren't ready for the school setting.
It was interesting that when I brought her in for interview with the school they didn't ask her more then her name. I thought they may test her on her Aleph Bais as that is a prerequisite for acceptance. They said they really just wanted to see how she would carry herself and behave in that environment. (It was a very pleasant, they gave her a prize, and it made her all the more excited for school). I'm guessing they were looking for a child who wasn't clinging to their mother, etc. (My daughter was expectabtly shy but managed to whisper her name).
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:11 am
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Academically is so important in your decision. A child who is academically up to par will be Bored and can potentially become a behavioral problem kid by third grade. Socially a child can catch up by second grade but a shaft child needs give challenged.
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 12:54 pm
I strongly encourage you to push your DS ahead. My DH and I wish every day that we had for our twins. DS and DD were born 6 days after the cutoff. Their preschool teachers urged us to push ahead, as they are very bright and socially mature. We decided not to push ahead on the advice of their preschool director.
Our kids are now in third grade. They are bored out of their minds, their social peers are in 4th and 5th grade. Just last night we discussed pulling them out of their school (which has been unable to meet their need for more enrichment).
They have started to goof off in school because they are SOOOO bored. So when we last approached the school, the administrator pointed out this "behavior" rather than their need for intellectual stimulation. (This type of goofing off is typical of gifted kids when they are bored.)
We have very limited Jewish school options in our area. We love the limudei kodesh at our current school, but the general studies is sooooo boring and has begun to have such a negative impact on our kids. After two years, our current school has not been able to meet our kids needs, despite our constant efforts with teachers and the administration. So now we are seriously considering pulling our kids out of Jewish school completely and sending to a public school with an excellent gifted program or another secular private school for gifted kids.
We desperately wish that we had gone with our gut feeling and pushed our kids ahead. For them, it would not have been a "push" nor would it have been "ahead." It would have put them where they needed to be. Spend some time in classrooms with kids a year older, see what they're like and think about whether your son would thrive in that social/academic group and at that level. Then do what your gut tells you and ignore everyone else.
(anonymous because I don't want to reflect poorly upon our school - it's a great place for middle-of-the-road kids and they really try hard and mean well) (edited to correct confusing typo)
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busydev
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 12:58 pm
| Quote: | I strongly encourage you to push your DS ahead. My DH and I wish every day that we had for our twins. DS and DD were born 6 days after the cutoff. Their preschool teachers urged us to push ahead, as they are very bright and socially mature. We decided not to push ahead on the advice of their preschool director.
Our kids are now in third grade. They are bored out of their minds, their social peers are in 4th and 5th grade. Just last night we discussed pulling them out of their school (which has been unable to meet their need for more enrichment).
They have started to goof off in school because they are SOOOO bored. So when we last approached the school, the administrator pointed out this "behavior" rather than their need for intellectual stimulation. (This type of goofing off is typical of gifted kids when they are bored.)
We have very limited Jewish school options in our area. We love the limudei kodesh at our current school, but the general studies is sooooo boring and has begun to have such a negative impact on our kids. After two years, our current school has not been able to meet our kids needs, despite our constant efforts with teachers and the administration. So now we are seriously considering pulling our kids out of Jewish school completely and sending to a public school with an excellent gifted program or another secular private school for gifted kids.
We desperately wish that we had gone with our gut feeling and pushed our kids ahead. For them, it would not have been a "push" nor would it have been "ahead." It would have put them where they needed to be. Spend some time in classrooms with kids a year older, see what they're like and think about whether your son would thrive in that social/academic group and at that level. Then do what your gut tells you and ignore everyone else.
(anonymous because I don't want to reflect poorly upon our school - it's a great place for middle-of-the-road kids and they really try hard and mean well) (edited to correct confusing typo) |
im no expert... but wouldnt they be bored out of their minds and goofing off if they were a year ahead? if the school isnt challenging for smart kids it wont be challenging either way.
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imasinger
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:08 pm
I was pushed ahead to first grade because my birthday was 9 days after the cutoff, and because I was able to read but clumsy with scissors.
I was considered to be fine socially because I wasn't aggressive, and interacted great with adults.
By the time of third grade, it was clear how socially behind I was, and I suffered for it until college.
A good teacher (or parent) should be able to provide enrichment that will keep all but the most exceptional from boredom. And, as busydev said, a child who is most exceptional is going to be bored even if he is one grade ahead in a mediocre school.
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MommytoB
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:20 pm
Where I am they like to decide in kindergarten (pre 1a) what to do with kids. Before that age, descrapencies both academically and socially are huge. By age 5/6 the disparity is smaller.
I have never heard parents regret holding back but have heard that about pushing forward. You can push ahead now for preschool and reevaluate the year before first grade. If you decide your child is not ready for first grade at that point repeat K/pre 1A.
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amother
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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:42 pm
My son is also 11 Daus past the cut off date. The school didn't give me a choice and initially I was upset. In pre 1a and1st grade his teachers had to give him lots of extra work because he was done so fast. Now he is in8 th grade and does find work to be challenging.
My next son wasa month and a half before the deadline so he is the youngest in the class. Doing beautifully socially, academically and emotionally.
After having one the oldest and one the youngest I kept the rest of my kids back. I can't explain why but oldest is so much better. And besides my son that is youngest is going be away from home so young when he leaves for yeshiva...
I'd keep him back. Btdt
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chanamichaelah007
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Fri, Dec 05 2014, 12:09 am
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Did that with my son. He was too bored and dumbed down before. It's been great for him BH. Missed cut off by 23 days. Did the opposite with his older brother. Worked out well for him. Different fellas, different needs. So far I don't regret either decision.
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seeker
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Fri, Dec 05 2014, 1:20 am
I'm in a similar dilemma but a couple of years ahead. At the age you're talking about, I moved her ahead because she was SO far ahead of the younger class in every way - verbal, knowledge, maturity, skills... social/emotional not so easy to tell but she was definitely a lot more interested in the turning-4's than in the not-yet-3's. By the end of that year I had some social/emotional concerns but again felt that I just couldn't hold her back because academically she was soaring, plus she already knew the other kids in the class and was looking forward to moving on with them (they were talking about going from nursery to real school for months...) I had my concerns but felt that it wouldn't be fair to hold her back for ANOTHER year of colors, numbers, and letters (which are repeated in kindergarten too, so imagine if she started nursery already knowing all those things, by the end of one year of nursery she not only knew all those things but just from regular development at home can count over a hundred, do basic addition and subtraction and multiply small numbers by 2, count by 2's, could identify the beginning consonant of many words just by hearing, begins to spell, can read some familiar words and apply to unfamiliar words - like she knew "zoo" from books and as a result figured out "moo" and "too"... and she should spend another TWO years - another preschool plus kindergarten - with kids learning letters, shapes, and colors?!)
So I don't feel like I made the wrong choice because what else was I to do?
But on the other hand I'm sad about her being pushed ahead and the youngest in her class because now it seems to me that she is really not developmentally ready. Her academics are amazing and she is absorbing knowledge in school like a sponge, her fine motor skills are about par, she is able to do everything she needs. But she still seems to have a need to do her own thing, the teacher said sometimes she acts too silly and immature in class and doesn't follow directions (e.g. project requires drawing a face and she instead draws a whole house/grass/trees scene because that's the art she wants to do) and I'm thinking maybe it's not that she needs to be taught/pushed to conform, but maybe she rather needs more time to be little. The teacher said she seems to be anxious in a sort of perfectionistic way, as if she feels pressured to perform - and I KNOW the teacher is not the pressuring type and neither am I; we both give super accepting and easygoing messages but I think she still perceives that she is being pushed to perform somehow. I'm worried that even though socially/emotionally she is not quite at the bottom of her class because she's a little mature and some other kids are a little delayed, I doubt she'll ever be fully comfortable and confident in this group.
I don't know how I could hold her back when academically she is so ahead - I don't think she's "gifted" enough that she would always be bored in any normal class; I just think academically she's very ready for the next grade. Plus she is very sensitive and perceptive, I'm concerned that she will feel that she must be a baby if she is being put with younger kids.
Basically what I'm saying is this is a really really tough dilemma!
Even if I do hold her back this year, I'm worried that the damage has already been done because she hasn't had a chance to chill out and be 3. She just turned 4 and has already been in kindergarten 3 months, being told that she must act like a big girl and do what the instructions are, I'm pretty sure by the end of the year her skills and behavior will have caught up but I worry that her self-esteem will be scarred for life by this being pushed ahead. But I don't see what I can do about it now; there's no going back, you can't take a kid who is proud of herself for being a Bais Yaakov girl and does all the right "big Bais Yaakov girl" things and put her back in nursery school mid-year. Plus she is really loving the intellectual stimulation, she comes home just bubbling with stories and songs and all kinds of things.
So even though I don't think I did anything wrong per se, with the information and situation I had at the time that decisions needed to be made, I still regret moving her ahead. It would have been a lot simpler to hold her back earlier than to be in this pickle now when she has already been exposed to the bigger world and wants to move ahead while that doesn't seem to be so emotionally healthy for her.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Dec 05 2014, 4:59 am
Seeker, is Kindergarten the year before first where you are? Or the 2 years before?
If it's two years before, there should be almost no expectation of her drawing a face when she's told to draw a face. I don't mean ability, I mean her choice. My kids do that sometimes and sometimes they are silly, even though they are in the "right" grades.
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seeker
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Fri, Dec 05 2014, 8:33 am
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2 years before 1st. I.e. the kids are 4 with some already turning 5 if they were held back before, but DD just turned 4 in November. I think the concern was that she follows directions a lot less than other kids. The face example was just one example of a project with specific instructions where she did her own thing. Basically it was a doll type of project and where everyone else's doll had a face, hers had a tree and flowers picture. Teacher is concerned about lack of following directions and not wanting to do what the class is doing. I'm thinking maybe despite her mature bluster maybe she just needs more time to be 3ish... Or maybe just didn't get the point of the exercise... or both... either way if it continues this desire to march to her own drummer, however legitimate, would get her in trouble in school. But that doesn't mean it's right. I have concerns about "silly"/hyper behavior at home too, and she receives OT for this and related things, so it shouldn't be surprising to me to hear from the teacher as well but still I feel iffy about this. Teacher was saying how she tries to steer her towards the more mature children because "she has it in her" and when she's with certain kids she gets more wild. But the reality is that the certain child and her are both very young compared to the "good" kids so maybe they're just developmentally still in a place where they need more uninhibited play... I don't know. It's hard to tell to what extent something is developmental or to what extent it's an actual problem, when you do already know that the child has some actual problems. I don't know whether we should be trying to push her past her problems, or whether we should not perceive them as problems at all. How much is processing and how much is choice? Or how much is processing that is really age appropriately underdeveloped but our expectations are too high? She provokes high expectations by being so smart and verbal but she really is just a drop more than 3.
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amother
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Fri, Dec 05 2014, 11:34 am
I'm gonna give a long answer that will show you both sides of the coin and what my kids' school does.
My dh was put into nursery at the age of 2.5 because his mother needed him out of the house. The school agreed because my mil said that she would repeat him the next year. At the end of the school year the school chose to send my dh to kindergarten because he played well with the kids. In the end he graduated high school a year early, meaning he was 16 when he went to israel, got a BTL and an MBA by the time he was 21. When we got married he was able to get himself a professional job as soon as we got married.
I am a teacher and a student I have (who is also a daughter of a friend) was something like 10 days after the cut off. The school was very strict with their cut off date so they went to get her tested to prove she belonged in the grade above. The school agreed. I taught her at the junior high level. I feel scholastically she struggles but I cant guarantee its because of being pushed forward or simply because she is that type of student. She has known these students all her life so socially she is good although if she was with the younger class she would have found her group as well.
My kids' school has offical report cards after kindergarden. They hold back on average 3 students every year. If a teacher is concerned about sending a child to Pre-1A, the principal meets with the student to make the decision. Any child who enters school at Pre-1A (did preschool elsewhere or not at all) has an interview with this principal as well. Its a way of doing "quality control". I taught one of the students who were held back. She is the queen bee of her class (meaning she DID NOT suffer socially) and she is in the top 5% of her class scholastically.
In your situation I would say push him forward, but reevaluate EVERY YEAR and if your child is struggling address it immediately.
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