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Dating a guy who does not have a civil divorce
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amother


 

Post Sun, Dec 07 2014, 11:57 pm
I have a friend who is dating someone who is not civily divorced yet. I have no idea how this works, but is there an actual problem for the two of them to get married before he has his civil divorce? I mean, is it considered bigomy? Or is it completely fine?
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 12:01 am
amother wrote:
I have a friend who is dating someone who is not civily divorced yet. I have no idea how this works, but is there an actual problem for the two of them to get married before he has his civil divorce? I mean, is it considered bigomy? Or is it completely fine?
she wouldn't be able to legally marry him until he obtained his civil divorce.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 12:04 am
ra_mom wrote:
she wouldn't be able to legally marry him until he obtained his civil divorce.
thanks. thats what I thought, but was not sure. They were talking about engagement, but there is no civil divorce. OK, time to talk some slowing down to her. Sad
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 12:12 am
amother wrote:
thanks. thats what I thought, but was not sure. They were talking about engagement, but there is no civil divorce. OK, time to talk some slowing down to her. Sad

Why doesn't he have his civil divorce yet? Are custody and alimony/child support still being negotiated?
She need to be very careful here. Tell her to tread carefully and make sure this man is upstanding.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 12:13 am
There are rabbis that won't marry them halachikly either. You can get in legal trouble if you do.
We had a case here like that. Was very complicated.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 12:15 am
ra_mom wrote:
Why doesn't he have his civil divorce yet? Are custody and alimony/child support still being negotiated?
She need to be very careful here. Tell her to tread carefully and make sure this man is upstanding.
I have no idea why there is no civil divorce. there were no children from the marriage. but I will tell her to be careful.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 4:50 am
Sure he has his get?
Was there a civil wedding?
No custody battle so that's not the reason...
Some rabbis will marry them esp if there's a good reason- but yea, carefully look into it!
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 4:52 am
Ruchel wrote:
Sure he has his get?
Was there a civil wedding?
No custody battle so that's not the reason...
Some rabbis will marry them esp if there's a good reason- but yea, carefully look into it!
I dont know if he actually has the get or not, but why would he lie? My friend is at least under the impression that he has the get. I am sure there was a civil marriage. Yes.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:07 am
In some states and countries it simply takes a long time to get a divorce. Some require the couple to not live together for a certain period of time, like a year. Without any other details, it's quite possible this is the reason. If it is, then nor problem. If there is a problem, then, well, what is it?

I wouldn't recommend getting married without getting legally married, but I don't see the problem with dating him as long as he has a get and is in the proper process of getting divorced, as long as it's not being dragged out or anything.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:13 am
Peanut2 wrote:
In some states and countries it simply takes a long time to get a divorce. Some require the couple to not live together for a certain period of time, like a year. Without any other details, it's quite possible this is the reason. If it is, then nor problem. If there is a problem, then, well, what is it?

I wouldn't recommend getting married without getting legally married, but I don't see the problem with dating him as long as he has a get and is in the proper process of getting divorced, as long as it's not being dragged out or anything.
I hope this is the case. I have no idea how long they have been separated. And the marriage was in NY.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:22 am
No, no, no, and no. You do not date someone who is not available for marriage.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:29 am
SRS wrote:
No, no, no, and no. You do not date someone who is not available for marriage.
I agree with you but my friend will never listen to reason.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:41 am
amother wrote:
I agree with you but my friend will never listen to reason.


Sadly she may be making herself a bad bed like a couple I know for which there was a chuppah performed by a rogue Rabbi. This couple both lacks character and one lacked self respect. Tell your friend to respect herself. (Added: the lack of civil marriage has caused them problems) Your friend is playing with fire esp because while they are dating he is not courting. A man with a situation would bring the lady he is dating facts and details. There would not be mysteries. He is not giving answers and you, her friend, are asking questions. I took a quick look at NY statute summary and it could be a long haul. She needs to find out where he is in the process at the very least as well as what court they are in, has the case even been accepted, and what the property division will be. I still say no no no.


Last edited by SRS on Mon, Dec 08 2014, 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 6:44 am
SRS wrote:
Sadly she may be making herslef a bad bed like a couple I know for which there was a chuppah performed by a rogue Rabbi. This couple both lacks character and one lacked self respect. Tell your friend to respect herself. She is playing with fire esp because while they are dating he is not courting. A man with a situation would bring the lady he is dating facts and details. There would not ve mysteries. He is not giving answers and you, her friend, are asking questions. I took a quick look at NY statute summary and it could be a long haul. She needs to find out where he is in the process at the very least as well as what court they are in, has the case been accepted, and what the property division will be. I still say no no no.
You say they are dating not courting. He told her already that he knows she is the one. I am sure he brought her dates and facts and all. I am just not asking her. Thats why I posted here to fix my curiousity.
Propertty divide? There is none to divide. (young and not getting into the reason for the divorce, but its just the paper he is waiting for, no assets)
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 7:24 am
My parents got a get right away, but the civil divorce took like 4 years to finalize. These things can drag out. In my parents' case, they actually signed a notarized document that they were ok with each other dating other people (that way, no one could turn around and try to use it against the other). My mother started dating my stepfather a few months before it was finalized, and they got engaged a few months after. My father was also dating someone before it was finalized, but didn't end up marrying her. So it's not crazy. But they could get into trouble if they get married before then, even just a religious ceremony. They need to wait till it's a done deal. I also don't understand how a divorce involving no children and no money could drag out so long. Something seems missing from the story.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 7:47 am
amother wrote:
You say they are dating not courting. He told her already that he knows she is the one. I am sure he brought her dates and facts and all. I am just not asking her. Thats why I posted here to fix my curiousity.
Propertty divide? There is none to divide. (young and not getting into the reason for the divorce, but its just the paper he is waiting for, no assets)


If they are actually engaged in a serious process, I'd try to mind my own business. But it seems you are concerned and I would be concerned too simply because I believe a strong s-xual ethic informs a strong marriage culture and I want to see my friends engage in building strong foundations. A not yet divorced cannot court because they cannot marry.

Telling a person they are the one is not the definition of courting. Courting is a process of dating wherein a person is seeking a spouse and, by definition, the prerequisite is that they CAN seek a wife. If either party to the relationship cannot marry in the immediate future, they cannot by definition be courting.

There are Rabbis out there who will marry them regardless. Some of these Rabbis like to preach that only halacha matters. But if we look at the very invention of the kesubah and the historical reason that is protected woman, we would insist the the wife (couple in general) have some protection and civil marriage offers a certain level of protection and we should insist on it.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 10:39 am
I know someone who couldn't get civilly divorced because the state she lived in required a year separation before divorce (and I think there were some other technical issues going on). She was only married for six weeks but needed to wait such a long time for her civil divorce, even though the get was taken care of. She met a guy and they got married halachically and when the divorce went through, civilly. It's probably not the best situation to be in, but it doesn't have to mean horrible things. My husband and I didn't get civilly married until a few months after our religious ceremony because we had some paperwork issues to deal with. Our rabbi had no problem marrying us religiously anyway, and to us, that was the ceremony that counted. Yes, your friend should proceed with some caution, but it might be ok. If you aren't super close with her, I wouldn't get involved.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 4:14 pm
I know a woman who got a get before her civil divorce. The civil divorce took longer and there were issues over child custody. A few months after her get she began dating another man, and they ended up getting halachically married before the civil divorce was finalized. The judge in the divorce case was so appalled that she got remarried before her divorce was finalized that he gave full custody of her children to her ex-husband - who was now living in another state! It was a disaster for her. She and her new husband were both employed and living in their original city, but she barely saw her kids. In the end, they had to pick up and move to her ex-husband's state to be closer to her kids for regular visitation.

It's best to wait until religious and civil divorce is finalized before remarrying.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 4:24 pm
amother wrote:
I know a woman who got a get before her civil divorce. The civil divorce took longer and there were issues over child custody. A few months after her get she began dating another man, and they ended up getting halachically married before the civil divorce was finalized. The judge in the divorce case was so appalled that she got remarried before her divorce was finalized that he gave full custody of her children to her ex-husband - who was now living in another state! It was a disaster for her. She and her new husband were both employed and living in their original city, but she barely saw her kids. In the end, they had to pick up and move to her ex-husband's state to be closer to her kids for regular visitation.

It's best to wait until religious and civil divorce is finalized before remarrying.


I wonder what the judge would have said if a couple was living together but not legally married before the divorce of the previous marriage was finalized.
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bookworm10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 08 2014, 5:11 pm
I know of someone who got engaged before one of them had a civil divorce. They had a get, and were in middle of the divorce proceedings, but it was taking a very long time due to minute details that weren't very important, but this particular judge harped on. (Not alimony or child support, just technicalities)

You never know. Look into each case.
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