For how long was Yaakov in Charan?

June

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 2:53 am

This is a bit of a random question.

DH and I discuss the parsha each Shabbos, and we had a question in Parshas Toldos. I always learned that Yaakov was in Charan for 14 years. He married Leah and Rachel after the first 7. It seems that Leah then had 6 kids in the following 7 years. Did she not nurse each child for 2 years before weaning? Based on what I know of ancient times, women didn't get their fertility back until their child was weaned.

So was this not the case with Leah? Or was Yaakov in Charan for a lot longer than 14 years?

I've tried looking around on different Torah websites, and couldn't find anything. Anyone have any clue?

Iymnok

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 3:10 am

It's so confusing.
After the second 7 years Lavan don't let him go, remember the striped and spotted sheep?
When he met Eisav Yosef was big enough and understood enough to block Rochel.
When they killed out Shchem, Shimon and Levi were like 11 and 13.
I remember something about him being in Charon for 21 years.

etky

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 3:13 am

Bereishit 31:41 (Vayetzay not Toldot)
He was in Haran for 20 years (not including travel time from and to Cna'an)- 14 years working off the "bride price" and 6 years for compensation.
I was also thinking recently that all of Ya'acov's kids were very closely spaced - all 12 kids (7 of whom, including Dina, were Leah's) were born in the space of 7 years. The only child to be born later was Binyamin.
I don't know about the fertility issue. Maybe Leah didn't nurse. Maybe there was a nursemaid (like Rivka had).

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 5:41 am

Just extrapolating from my own experience: I nursed exclusively for well over a year, 12 times a day, including a couple of times each night. Nevertheless, my fertility returned at around 9-10 months. I don't see why Leah couldn't have had her kids spaced 18 months apart.

With all that, I am happier with a reading that has Shimon and Levi in their early 20s, and Dina a teenager, at the time of the incident of Shechem. An interpretation that has Shimon and Levi at 11 and 13 --- not to mention Dina being a little girl --- is hard to understand. There's a tendency to have as a default that all incidents follow on the heels of another (and thus place the incident of Shechem right after Yaakov's return to Eretz Yisrael) but I don't see why this has to be the case.

m in Israel

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 5:47 am

etky wrote:

Not 7 years -- 13 years. The marriages of both Rochel and Leah took place after the first 7 out of the 20 years, leaving 13 left for Leah to have her 7 kids (and the shfachos to have theirs and Rochel to have Yosef.)

June

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 5:58 am

etky wrote:

oh wow, I didn't realize it said it straight out in the Torah, thanks for sourcing that! Idk why I always thought 14 years...

etky

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 7:03 am

m in Israel wrote:

The children (other than Binyamin) were all born during the second 7 years that Ya'acov worked for Rachel. After 14 years in Haran, after the birth of Yosef, Ya'acov makes up his mind to leave, having paid off his 'debt' to Lavan. Lavan, however persuades him to stay in Haran for a wage. He stays or another 6 years but no children are born during that time.
Some interpret this fact as a message that G-d was sending to Ya'acov, before he eventually told him outright - that it was time to go home!

yo'ma

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 7:10 am

etky wrote:

Yay me!! I knew that because my ds is having a test on parshas veyetzai today and I helpled him study Smile

m in Israel

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 8:21 am

etky wrote:

You are right embarrassed

I guess it's been a while since I've gone through sefer Beraishis inside! That really is hard to understand, especially considering that Leah had a period of "va'tamod laledes" (SIF?) in between which is why she gave Yaakov Zilpah. It is really hard to understand how 7 kids in 7 years has any period that could be considered "va'taamod laledes".. .

June

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 8:26 am

m in Israel wrote:

You are right embarrassed

that was exactly my husband's question! and I couldn't find any explanation, which is why I posted here.

etky

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 8:36 am

There is a problem with chronology here, not only the ותעמד מלדת, which is inexplicable in our terms really, but also that there had to have been a gap of a few years to allow for the births of Gad and Asher before Leah resumed having children. I guess it joins other chronological problems in Bereishit that we don't really have the answers for...

doctorima

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 9:56 am

DH gets a weekly parsha email called Parsha Potpourri (I think you can google it for how to subscribe). This year's Vayeitzei issue had the following Dvar Torah:

Were Yaakov’s 12 sons born after full-term pregnancies, and if not, why not? (Seder Olam 2, Derashos Chasam Sofer 7 Adar 2 5575)

The Seder Olam writes that Yaakov spent 20 years in the house of Lavan working for him. The first seven years he worked in order to marry Rochel, during the next seven years he had 12 children (11 sons and Dina), and he remained an additional six years before returning to the land of Israel. Apparently assuming that none of the pregnancies overlapped, he writes that in order for 12 children to be born in a span of seven years, they must have all been born in the seventh month of their pregnancies. Interestingly, the Chasam Sofer suggests that the majority of righteous souls are born prematurely due to a tremendous desire to enter this world to begin serving Hashem by learning Torah and doing mitzvos.

anon for this

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 11:15 am

Looking through Ishei HaTanach, I found a reference to one medrash (Medrash Lekach Tov) stating that Reuven brought the dudaim to Leah in the 5th year of her marriage to Yaakov, when he was 4 years old. This makes the timeline even tighter. Remember that after Leah gave birth to her first 4 children (Reuven, Shimon, Levi, and Yehudah), she stopped having children ("amdah miledes"), so gave Zilpah to Yaakov. Zilpah then gave birth to Gad and Asher. All this happened before Reuven found the dudaim. So according to this medrash, Leah's first 4 children must have been quite close in age, and so were Gad and Asher. (Of course, if Leah's pregnancies were so close together, she would have quickly realized that she'd stopped having children).

Note that Bilhah gave birth to Dan and Naftali during this time also, but I think that this could have overlapped with the time that Leah and Zilpah were having children.

gittelchana

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 11:18 am

June wrote:

Yaakov was in Charan for 20 years. It says so clearly in the Perek 31 Pasuk 41 - in the end of Parshas Vayeitzei - where Yaakov is leaving Charan.

He worked for 7 years then married Leah and Rachel, then worked another 7 years and asked to leave. He went back to work for another 6 years which is when he became wealthy.

All the Shevatim (aside from Binyamin) were born between years 7-14.

anon for this

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 11:32 am

anon for this wrote:

Quoting myself to add this:

I reread doctorima's post more carefully. According to the medrash I quoted, Leah's and Zilpah's pregnancies must have been closer to 7 months than to 9, as she says in her post. But I don't believe that none of the pregnancies overlapped. For one thing, in order for medrash I quote above to be true, Bilhah's pregnancies must have overlapped either with Leah's or with Zilpah's. Also, there is another medrash that implies that Leah's pregnancy with Dinah overlapped Rochel's pregnancy with Yosef.

etky

Tue, Dec 09 2014, 11:45 am

anon for this wrote:

Oh yes, the one that says that Dina and Yosef were switched in the womb. Some say b/c Leah prayed for it to happen for Rachel's sake , and some say it was b/c of Rachel's prayer for another son.