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Can a jew ever not be a jew?



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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:22 am
I always thought if your mother is jewish or you converted to judiasm, the orthodox way, you're always a jew. I'm asking because I don't remember where and I don't remember who, but I read recently that if one converts to another religion, they are not considered jewish anymore. I'm not talking about an observant jew or a even a good one. If someone converts to Christianity and is baptized, two questions. One, if it's a woman, is their children jewish and two, if they decide to come back to judiasm, they have to go to the mikva, but do they have to do the whole conversion process? If yes to the first question, than it shows that they are still jewish. Is there ever a time a jew is not considered jewish?
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:34 am
Maybe what you read wasn't regarding halacha? Israel has prevented people from making Aliyah based on the Right of Return because of conversion to Christianity, but I've never heard of someone who was born Jewish (or converted legitimately with a legitimate rav) who lost their Jewish status halachically.

(edited for typos)


Last edited by water_bear88 on Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:38 am
water_bear88 wrote:
Maybe what you read was regarding halacha? Israel has prevented people from making Aliyah based on the Right of Return because of conversion to Christianity, but I've never heard of someone who was born Jewish (or converted legitimately with a legitimate rav) who lost their Jewish status halachically.

I think it was in reference to halacha, but I'll search where I saw it.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:41 am
There are differences of opinion about this. No one says the person is allowed to continue to transgress the Torah. The question is if/when he or she does teshuva, should the person immerse in a mikva? It might be necessary more symbolically than because actually having "become non-Jewish".

I have distant cousins who are halachically Jews but practice a religion that isn't Judaism.

Info based on what I've read. Disclaimer that I'm not a professional rabbi, etc.
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 4:58 am
yo'ma wrote:
I think it was in reference to halacha, but I'll search where I saw it.

I found it. There's no rabbis name to it and it's written by a non jew as a conversation he had with a rabbi.
Quote:
I’m reminded of a conversation I once had with a Rabbi working with Jews for Judaism about this very thing – what constitutes being Jewish. I asked him if Jewish was a genetic, biological, ethnic, cultural, or religious designation. He responded by saying it involved all of those in one way or another.

I then asked him how he would describe a young man, born to a Jewish mother & father, growing up in an Orthodox Jewish home – kosher, synagogue attending, Torah studying & observant etc. Would this young man be Jewish? The answer was obvious – yes, he is Jewish. I went on to say that, what if this young man goes to University and some evangelical group began talking to him about Yeshua (Yoshke) being the Messiah and Savior of all who believe in him and he comes to believe Yoshke is his Messiah. Would he still be Jewish? The Rabbi said, no. He would not be Jewish, he would be Christian.

I countered, but what if he still studies Talmud, keeps kosher, strives to be a Torah-keeping follower of Yoshke? He has a Jewish mother & father, so why would he not simply be seen as a Jewish follower of Yoshke?

I said to the Rabbi that it seemed he had a religious designation for what constituted being Jewish. He agreed that it was probably a religious designation.

At that, I said I had one more question: “Is Woody Allen a Jew?” He said, “Yes, of course he is Jewish.” I said, “How could he be? He’s everything you are not!” To this, my Rabbi friend (and he is a friend), said: “Woody Allen is an uninformed Jew.”

To that, I replied: “That is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard. If Woody Allen is simply an uninformed Jew, then, following your logic, every Jewish person who believes in Yoshke is simply and uninformed Jew, but they are still Jews.”

To this he replied: “No, the young man is an idolater because he worships Yoshke as God and Jews know there is but one God.”

http://roshpinaproject.com/201.....sman/
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 5:05 am
I recall learning that if one makes an open declaration that you believe in another religion or god, such as attending a xtian church or being baptised, worshipping at an idol or something similar, then one has to make some kind of public declaration of return to Judaism.

I don't know exactly what that means, just that, for example, a man who has converted to Catholicism can't one day walk into shul and expect to be counted for the minyan or be called up, whereas someone who is non practising could be. I think.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 5:46 am
Isramom8 wrote:
There are differences of opinion about this. No one says the person is allowed to continue to transgress the Torah. The question is if/when he or she does teshuva, should the person immerse in a mikva? It might be necessary more symbolically than because actually having "become non-Jewish".

I have distant cousins who are halachically Jews but practice a religion that isn't Judaism.

Info based on what I've read. Disclaimer that I'm not a professional rabbi, etc.


Isramom8, nice to see you.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 7:51 am
Someone I know cousin's married a girl whose mother was born Jewish, but converted to Christianity. She had a geirus lechumra which was private and she was fully clothes. She also isn't considered girl bas sara, but girl bas her mothers name. I don't know if this is always the case or if she wanted to do this for political reasons, but it's interesting food for thought.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 7:56 am
[quote="yo'ma"]I always thought if your mother is jewish or you converted to judiasm, the orthodox way, you're always a jew. I'm asking because I don't remember where and I don't remember who, but I read recently that if one converts to another religion, they are not considered jewish anymore. I'm not talking about an observant jew or a even a good one. If someone converts to Christianity and is baptized, two questions. One, if it's a woman, is their children jewish and two, if they decide to come back to judiasm, they have to go to the mikva, but do they have to do the whole conversion process? If yes to the first question, than it shows that they are still jewish. Is there ever a time a jew is not considered jewish?[/quote]

born a jew remains a jew no matter what type of water the cristians pour on his head. it dont matter. that what I always learnd.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 7:59 am
yo'ma wrote:
I always thought if your mother is jewish or you converted to judiasm, the orthodox way, you're always a jew. I'm asking because I don't remember where and I don't remember who, but I read recently that if one converts to another religion, they are not considered jewish anymore. I'm not talking about an observant jew or a even a good one. If someone converts to Christianity and is baptized, two questions. One, if it's a woman, is their children jewish and two, if they decide to come back to judiasm, they have to go to the mikva, but do they have to do the whole conversion process? If yes to the first question, than it shows that they are still jewish. Is there ever a time a jew is not considered jewish?


You can never "un-Jew" yourself. If someone converts out, they would need to go to the Mikvah and accept the Mitzvos when they return (similar to Giyur). But this is only part of their Teshuvah process. It doesn't mean they aren't Jewish.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 8:23 am
A Jew can always return to Torah, but if they were sidetracked by converting to/practicing another religion, they immerse in mikva for the sake of the sanctity of Am Yisrael. It is not a conversion. I don't want to compare it to toiveling dishes, but the two concepts do seem related.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 09 2014, 12:08 pm
There are various opinions but it seems IRL if you prove you're Jewish, you're Jewish.
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