I have the most ugly kesuva ever seen. Problem in Israel?

amother

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 2:29 pm

Hey,
I got married a few months ago.
The Rav (a very chashuve man) just took out a ballpoint pen and normal printer stationary paper to write my kesuva. Of course I did not realize it until I accepted it under the chuppa.

It does not even look like any official document at all. I assume halachically it is kosher but it is just so ugly and unprofessional.
Would this pose problems with the Israeli rabbanut if - lets say we or our children - at one time want to make aliya and my children want to get married in Israel? Do we need something more "official"? If so, how can you rewrite a kesuva without getting remarried (we had a very frum wedding that and I'd hate to redo that because I feel it is 100% valid.)

To make things more complicated, I am a geyores. I did the giur in America with a chareidi beis din. Never had any problems becoming community member and being accepted into frum seminaries in Israel. However, I have never dealt directly with the Rabbanut. Is this problematic for Israel?
I don't want to hazard my children's status (and my own, of course).

Thanks

amother

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 2:44 pm

My parents' kesuba was handwritten, 50+ years ago, and it never presented any problem. It is certainly perfectly valid, why wouldn't it be? Till relatively recently, all kesubos were handwritten.

But if you're worried about the Israeli rabbinate, why don't you get in touch with them and ask?

amother

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 2:51 pm

OP: My hebrew is not fluent and I heard from a bunch of Israeli (!!!) friends (who are born jewish, frum and all, spek fluent Hebrew and also had HUGE problems with the Rabbanut) that if you do not speak fluent Hebrew they do not even talk to you. And it needs a LOT of chutzpah to deal with them because thats supposedly the only language they understand. They love to reject anything unless you can argue with them in Hebrew...
So I am scared to death.

Hubby and me are Yeshivish frum and my giur was more than 10 years ago....

Iymnok

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 3:09 pm

I'm sure it's valid, but don't know much about what the rabbanut would accept.
DH told me about a wedding where the mesder kedushin saw that there was a problem with the kesuba sho he took a paper napkin and wrote a new one himself.
I would ask a rav if you could have a new one written. I believe you can since if it gets lost you can write up a new one. (Considering you can't be intimate if you don't know where it is)

amother

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 3:12 pm

amother wrote:

DH and I are both dati leumi veteran olim- he came as a baby, I as a teen- and we had problems with the rabbanut which had nothing to do with our parents' kesubos. We got around them because we both had relationships with rabbanim here- I would say that's probably the best prevention for really serious issues with the rabbanut (I.e. having someone who'll argue your case for you and be taken seriously).

Kugglegirl

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 4:09 pm

I had lots of good help at the Rabanut of Jerusalem from an english speaking Rabbi when I went through a divorce & get. I took my papers where he told me & everyone was helpful. I did have to wait in lines & everything took time. His name is Rabbi Asher Arento. IDK if he is still there. it was over 15 years ago.

finallyamommy

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 6:21 pm

amother wrote:

Don't worry. I'm a giyores, speak very bad/halting Hebrew, and there were no problems when I got married or made aliyah. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more, but it's been around 4 years, so I don't know how much I'll remember/how much I can help.

amother

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 8:26 pm

We never know what the rabanut can or cannot accept because there were some charedim that made issued with ketubot and giur made my the rabanut of Israel, the best way for you to be sure is to check with a rabbi that is connected to the rabanut n Israel to give you a better answer.

bluebird

Sun, Jan 11 2015, 9:28 pm

It's not that it's ugly, it's that it looks fake, right?

Can you ask another rav to look at it and give an opinion? Try to find the most machmir on ketubot rav that you can. Smile

Chana Miriam S

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 12:29 am

Mrs Bissli wrote:

There are two kinds of ketubot IMHO--kosher ones and non-kosher ones. Ugly is not an adjective I associate with a legal document.

Wait till you see mine.

DrMom

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 12:59 am

You may be able to get some help from ITIM when it comes to navigating the Rabbinut.

BTW, the Rabbinut has, unfortunately, a reputation for being rude to everyone, not just non-Hebrew-speakers.

There are many Jews in Israel who are not observant and their only touch-points with the religous establishment come when they marry or when someone dies, and the Rabbinut is so rude to them on a routine basis. Major chilul HaShem.

silbergirl

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 5:51 am

And no, it does not look fake. Just ballpen scribbled text on a piece of printer paper.... verrrry old school....
To Israel it may look fake as its neither printed nor with pictures or stamps or whatever (but then again is a kesuva with stamps and pics and holograms even halachically valid????).

It looks like anyone who writes fluent Hebrew just scribbled it.... has been like that for thousands of years BUT nowadays most kesuvas I have seen are either printed or some print/handwriting combo. Or on klaf from a sofer.
I do not doubt its halachical status, the rav is very frum and knows what he is doing. Just Israel may not like it? Because its just handwritten...

Ruchel

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 5:55 am

Various things:

Unfortunately, a "weird" or "rav unknown" can be refused by a rabbinate.
Many North African jews had such ketubot as you describe, some even written in Arabic or French!
My own cousin, her parents' ketuba was from a pre war chassidishe rav, the rabbinate had zero inkling who that was.

Some got a new one, some got accepted, some had to remarry, some decided to do without... some got a Judaity certificate.

Just, YOU know you are married, bh.

Hebrew. When we got married we went to rabbanut with dh's cousin, a rav affiliated to them who speaks Hebrew (caveat: chul, frum hebrew is NOT Israeli Hebrew) and he soooo helped. Can you bring someone along. We had no idea who to go to, what to say, how to convince... I don't really want to say more but yea

iluvjerusalem

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 10:35 am

We got married directly through the eida chareidit in Jerusalem and didn't have to go through the rabanut. They did not ask to see parents ketubas at all. I have a friend who had to get a new ketuba, the new ketuba is a printed sheet of paper with signatures, like any legal document you'd see.

iluvjerusalem

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 10:38 am

Just think how many baalei tshuva or non-religious people make aliyah, whose parents didn't even think about getting a ketuba at all! It can't all be dependent on that.

Peanut2

Mon, Jan 12 2015, 11:33 am

I think that this just bothers you personally.

I made aliyah and for married in Israel and a) for aliyah I did not need to show my parents ketuba and b) when I got married I did, but it's also possible to get married through the rabbanut of the eida charedit (which we almost did because it's cheaper and less bureaucratic), and I'm pretty sure that's not the most impoprtant thing. Since you are a giyoret your kids would have to show some stuff related to that. Anyway, my parents' ketuba was super simple and the rabbanut itself gives super simple ketubot.

If you want a pretty one why don't you ask if you can get one?