Question for modern orthodox imamothers

zelda

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 2:53 pm

Hi.

I work in a situation with many modern orthodox families. I have a few questions that I don't mean in an offensive way. Just curious and also will help me practically.

Most of these women don't cover their hair and do wear pants. Is there a halachik source for this? What is it?

What other areas if Halacha are you strict/ compromise on? Or maybe u don't look at it as compromising at all.

An example. I just went to a party with 50ish MO people. There were bagels there and no place to wash. Everyone was eating. Is washing for bread optional? Or do U just not think about it.

How about davening 3 times a day for men?

In a practical sense I am wondering about sending my children to eat in your homes. Is kashrus something u don't compromise on. Or if there is a just a little mix up/ an awesome food with no hechsher but kosher ingredients you let it pass.

How do u look at Halacha on the whole. A good way to live when it's convenient? Or even when it's not convenient?

Are you inspired about living jewishly? Why do you do it? Do u feel you have to or do u want to? If you want to do u feel a desire to grow in Judaism? If yes how would you carry out that desire?

Thanks for helping me out with this.

sequoia

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 2:58 pm

You need to know all this in order to get along with colleagues?

MamaBear

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 2:59 pm

Can someone answer her nicely? My mother told me to keep quiet when I can't think of anything nice to say.

amother

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:02 pm

To answer your question, it depends on the particular MO person. Just like there are yeshivish people who are more sincere about halacha and others that don't mind doing things like tax evasion, etc. there are all types of MO people.
On the tznius issue, yes, there are halachic sources for the idea that pants and no head covering are ok. On the washing issue, MO people know that it's required but it's a choice not to do it. As far as davening, some do it and others don't. In general, I have found that most MO people are strict on kashrut even if they don't do the other things you've discussed.
In terms of inspiration, I think many MO people live extremely inspired Jewish lives. They experience Judaism as less about strictness and rigidity and more about beauty and growing in multiple aspects of your lives, not just religously.

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:03 pm

mmmm, is it true all charedim are Belz? I saw Belzers, once!

MO is extremely large.

That said, as you'll see on Imamother, there are compromisers and non compromisers in every single group, litest MO to outwardly shtarkest charedi.

The sources for pants and no haircovering have been posted and reposted - not getting into it.

Following daas Torah allowing something is not compromising, nor is it about appetizing or not (?!).

Your last questions are hurtful !!

monseychick

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:29 pm

Wow.... Locked... That was fast.... LOL

I hope this is respectful..

there is an entire section devoted to "respectfully understanding" other groups. Anyone who has a specific question about Modern orthodox should post it there.

1) there are MO halochic authorities which these women follow and who say that in today's society where headcovering is no longer a sign of being married there is a halochic interpretation of the meaning of headcovering for married women which by that interpretation
one does not mave to cover one's hair if living in such a society.

2) Same goes for pants - not "kli gever" whatsoever in a society in which women wear pants

3) Bagels - there is definitely a halochic opinion that boiled dough (bagels are boiled) is a mezonos and not a motzi unless one is making an entire meal only out of it, under which circumstances one washes and benches for a fruit plate as well if that is one's entire
meal and I've never heard of anyone who lives on fruits and veg (celiacs etc.) who actually washes before an entire fruit meal etc.
Ask your Rov to explain Pas Haboh BKisnin to you..

4) Kashrus - any frum woman over the age of 50-60 who didn't grow up in Brooklyn knows well how to read ingredients as we all did our whole lives considering that except in exclusively frum areas in the 1950s there were no hechshers for anything except meat. We all knew the
chemicals which were muttar/ossur and what companies were ok and which were not. In europe today it is the same and "kosher lists" in various countries do very often list products having absolutely no "hechchser" but whose contents are known in the Jewish communities
for being ok. Any non charedi or non chassidic frum european woman knows this well, ask Ruchel for example
.
5) Davening three times a day - of course frum men whether MO or anything else daven three times a day...but if one goes by strict halocho then actually Ma'ariv is reshus. Unlike missing either Shachris or Mincha which are chova. Many black hat litvish working guys skip min/m regularly. Its been discussed numerous times here on the Shalom Bayis forum.

6) Normal yiddishkeit does not require ANYONE to "grow in Judaism". From start to finish one is supposed to live to the letter of the law as interpreted by your group's rabbonim and halochic authorities. BTs maybe have to "grow in Judaism" if they start from nothing
and then start keeping mitzvos.

It is not a term that is used by Jews. In fact it is a non jewish term that is used by the Xtian clergy which seems to be de riguer on Imamother for whatever reason. It is not really used in real life except by fundamentalists whether Jewish or not and by preachers and revivalists including Jewish charedi style revivalists. In mainstream Judaism one strives to keep to halocho. Not to "grow". There is no advantage to keeping shabbos for two days, yom kippur for two days or pesach for two weeks. There is no advantage to
add on davenings which aren't in the siddur, to wear a burka covering things which do not have to be covered by straight halocho etc. As for striving to be close to Hashem we are commanded to "Love" Hashem but nothing more. Chasidism and other groups have added different interpretations and that's fine for that group, but it is not mainstream frumkeit.

greenfire

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:30 pm

Hashem made everyone - with good - with bad - with equal yetzer horas - with equalized spirituality

do NOT ever ask anybody how their spiritual life is

just as you would NOT dare ever ask anybody how their zex life is !!!

ואהבת לרעך כמוך love your friend as thyself ~ we are all just as vulnerable - we all cry - we all bleed

we all pray to the same Hashem !!!

all you need to do is treat people with human dignity Idea

Heyaaa

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:38 pm

You and monseychick are so nice. I wrote a long post in response, following style of OP's post asking for help on how to be a troll but by the time I pressed send, the thread had been locked.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:41 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

You and monseychick are so nice. I wrote a long post in response, following style of OP's post asking for help on how to be a troll but by the time I pressed send, the thread had been locked.

she is not a troll. if you look her up, she has been on imamother since 2006 or 2009 or something.
Some people just live in their own bubbles and anything out of their bubbles is beyond what they know anything about. thats all. I wasnt goin to answer that thread with a ten foot pole.

etky

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:43 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Neither was I. I wasn't going to dignify it with a response.

mille

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 3:54 pm

So beautifully stated. Liking was not enough!

I think this concept of "growing in Judaism" is what leads people to believe that certain more strict groups are inherently "better" in practice than a more "lenient" (even though that's a poor use of the term) group. If my rabbi holds that hair covering for married women is not necessary in American society, it's not "better" to then choose to cover my hair. It's a personal thing, but it's not better or worse. Both are acceptable, equally acceptable. I think this concept of all opinions, as long as they are valid, are equally acceptable is very common in the MO world and maybe less so in more right wing communities. Just speculation on my part, though!

Yael

Wed, Jan 14 2015, 4:00 pm

I have merged all the spinoffs into one thread for clarity.
The thread is locked to prevent it from going sour, but if anyone has something to add please pm me or mrs bissli and we will be happy to post it.