Hosting Expectations

amother

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 7:13 am

This has been an ongoing discussion and I'd like to get input from others.

DH thinks the most important aspect of hosting a meal is the offering of the space for people to get together. To him, the act of inviting people is more important than the details of what you serve. DH thinks that guests appreciate the opportunity to spend time together and are not expecting a high quality meal. If there was a week that was so busy that we didn't have time to cook anything ourselves for Shabbat, DH thinks it would be acceptable to invite guests to a meal that was entirely takeout and nothing homemade.

I think that when you invite guests into your home, there is an expectation that you will provide a good meal in which you personally prepared in some way. This is not to say that everything you serve always has to be homemade (I always buy challah and often buy dessert for example). But if there was a week in which it was so busy that we couldn't prepare a single thing ourselves and would have to serve only takeout, then I would be horrified to have guests. I don't even see the point of having guests if we're only serving takeout; let someone else host the meal then.

The assumptions here are that our home is clean, a normal number of guests, and a non-simcha affair.

Thoughts? Is one of us obviously wrong/right about guest expectations here? Is this a cultural thing? A men/women differences thing?

imasinger

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 7:23 am

The extremely busy week, did you know it would be like that ahead of time? It is best to announce "no guests this week" as early in the week as possible.

This is not about who is right in theory. It's about recognizing and respecting two people.

My DH is a lot like yours about guests, but I have made it clear that whether he thinks my viewpoint is logical or not, he has to honor it. As I honor his. So, much of the time, we have guests, even when the fare is not as sumptuous. But when we have a truly insane week, the answer is no. Not because guests will or won't appreciate a take out meal, but because I need a quiet Shabbos and a less stressful preparation after a hectic week, and I am 50% of the marriage.

daagahminayin

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 7:26 am

I understand your point of view now as a wife, but when I was single and living in Israel without the means to make Shabbos for myself, I had to ask around for Shabbos invitations each week. Often people would say they couldn't have me because they weren't able to "make" a proper Shabbos meal and were doing take-out. How I wished they would have had me anyway - I totally didn't care about the food, and it was all about the company. Take-out or a really simple Shabbos meal with others is better than sitting by yourself with a challah roll and grape juice.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are people to whom the food is more important when they go out for meals. So I guess you have to know who you're talking to. I think a simple statement of, "We'd love to have you but I must warn you that we're doing a very basic Shabbos this week" is enough to allow people to make the choice for themselves.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 8:08 am

I think that depends on the guests. There are some guests I would not invite in those circumstances, but if someone really needs a shabbos meal I would be happy for them to share our meal. But, I would not invite the shul president and his wife that week. Unless there was some emergency and they too really needed to be hosted.

morah

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 8:30 am

I think it's a gender thing. Men in general have lower standards and are all about efficiency. To them, a towel is for drying your hands and who cares if the towels in the guest bathroom match. But as women, we feel the need for that nice look even if it makes extra work and little practical difference. So while I agree with your husband that guests come for the company and there is nothing wrong with serving takeout, in practice, I too would feel terrible to take the easy way out and would rather not have anyone if I'm not up to making a nice meal. I get how you feel. That said, I'm like Raisin. If someone is in need, I wouldn't turn them away just because of this, but if it was someone I feel the need to impress, I would definitely say we need to do a different week.

devash1

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 8:38 am

I agree that it's mostly the company, but I also feel pressure to make it a nice meal and have the house looking nice. We just had a discussion today about having guests this week, and I said I wasn't up to it. He said it's no harder that usual and I don't have to make anything extra, but I still feel more pressure when we have guests, and it's definitely more work, not tons more, but still.....

amother

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 8:46 am

We have a lot of company as we live in Har Nof and my DH teaches in a Yeshiva. Late one Thursday night a Bachur who was a ben bais at our house called and asked if he could come for Friday night. I knew he must be desperate if he was calling so late so I told him he could come but I was only serving chicken soup. I thought he was going to cry he was so happy that we would have him on a "down" shabbos. We forget what it means to never have a down shabbos. When you are a guest its always a big meal and a show. He thanked me and DH so much for having him that night that I have since extended the invitation to others (when I get a call late Thursday night or Friday). I have never had a complaint. On the other hand I wouldn't invite a family or have a table with 6 bachurim and only serve chicken soup so I guess it depends on what it means by guests.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 10:24 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I've scaled back a ton over the years because I used to think like you, but I agree with your DH.

People come for the company. They can make their own food, but they can't make your side of the conversation :-)

I agree less is more too. Nothing shameful about serving a two course meal - most frum people seem to think you have to serve four courses with several salads, a choice of two types of meat, etc. I now serve fish and one salad, some dips, chicken and 2-3 sides. Sometimes I do soup instead of fish. Plus dessert. If I had no guests I would skip the fish. I know we appreciate actually enjoying each course, not feeling full long before the soup is served.

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 10:24 am

Guests need enough food, not variety. We were guests by a large family and there were a couple bochurim. There was not enough food, challah, salad, Cholent. We went home hungry.
There is such a nice feeling of ample food, even if it's simple. If you need to, fill in with something simple like potatoes or rice.

If you don't feel up to entertaining, then don't.

I have found that when people have guests they try to cook fancier food. Often with sugar, mayo, rich's whip, puff pastry...
Even guests like normal food.

Simple1

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 10:36 am

In the cases where people really need the place to stay and invite themselves, then it's OK to have them make do with a simple meal, as long as it's enough to feed everyone.

Otherwise I'm somewhere in between you and your husband. You don't need to go all out, but if you're inviting them, it's nice to have something basically presentable. In the case of close family who comes often, you can feel less pressured.

luppamom

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 10:38 am

I think there are 2 different types of scenarios when people have guests. It can be for social reasons or b/c someone needs a place. The first case seems to be what OP is referring to. I personally agree w/ OP. I do not like to have guests (for socializing) unless I have a good menu. This is just me. I will, however, feel comfortable buying challah and dessert. I just need to have a few dishes that were made by me. In general, I'm simple. When there's guests, it's usually challah, liver or fish, salad, soup, chicken, one or 2 sides and dessert (often pareve ice-cream or really simple like chocolate chip bars or brownies-homemade.) If the point is only to socialize, we can do that a different way. If it's socializing over food, IMO, the food better be good. Although, from the perspective of a guest, I totally don't mind if the stuff is all store bought. Kind of ironic Smile

If a person needs a place, then I would invite them even if it was all takeout or in our case (nowhere to really do take-outs from), it's having a really, really simple- what DH and I would be eating if the guest was not there + enough for the guest, meal.

saw50st8

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 11:34 am

Raisin wrote:

I've totally stopped serving appetizers. I found they were a lot of work and the kids didn't like them. So the hungry kids were bugging the adults eating the fancy, hard to make dish and weren't able to enjoy it. So I make a nice meal and a nice dessert.

OP, here's my simple method that I usually follow:

Bought Challah
A chicken dish (if I'm in a rush, cut up roasted chicken on the bone, spiced)
A meat dish (either a roast or cholent) or an egg dish (like quiche) if I have vegetarian guests
A starchy dish (rice, simple roasted potatoes, pasta salad)
A vegetable dish (something easy or I buy prechecked)
A green salad (I assemble on shabbat morning and buy pre-checked)
Dessert (either a simple cake or something I bought)
Cut fruit (usually simple things like melon)

When I'm efficient, I can prep and get everything cooking in 45 minutes (it cooks longer).

The food is simple, fast, good and everyone has a great time.

Miri7

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 12:04 pm

I agree that there are times when you have guests you want to roll out the red carpet for and others who are like family and can do a simpler meal or takeout.

On weeks when were overwhelmed, we usually invite our close friends who would be happy with anything.
That said, even if you're having the fancy guests, if you end up needing to get takeout, get enough tasty food and just say "we are so happy to have you, I'd planned to cook a big spread, but this week just got wild so please excuse the takeout!" Just acknowledge it and be gracious hosts. It's much more about the good hosting than whether you cooked the food.

Sometimes I will just have cooked for our family but then DH or I realize that someone at shul needs a place to eat by. We invite them and they never seem to mind the simple meal that we serve. In fact, those meals are often so warm and nice and relaxed I think that our guests really enjoy themselves.

Fox

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 12:11 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Same here!

And I found people were often more enthused about the basics than about something elaborate that had taken all day to prepare.

OP, I see both sides of this, and IMHO, both you and your DH are correct.

The most effective trick, in my experience, is to never skimp on presentation, regardless of the food's provenance.

For example, I used to do beautifully-set tables every Shabbos with homemade food, but during the last year or two, illness has forced me to make a lot of compromises. I discovered that the best one for me was to serve everything in nice serving pieces.

In fact, I've found that nice paper goods combined with nice serving pieces, while not my ideal, works pretty well to create a Shabbos atmosphere without sending me to bed until Tuesday.

Perhaps look for a similar compromise to create an atmosphere that really does signal to guests that you care about making the seuda special -- but without relying on time-consuming dishes. Things like fresh flowers, a beautiful tablecloth, sprigs of parsley . . . these can add just as much to the experience for your guests as home-cooked food.

yamz

Thu, Jan 15 2015, 2:41 pm

OP, I agree with your DH with one caveat: you have to do something to make your guests feel welcome. In other words, you do have to show that you put in a little bit of extra effort for their sake. That extra effort doesn't mean you have to slave in the kitchen! It means maybe you should buy an extra side dish for variety and be sure to serve some kind of dessert. So long as there is plenty of tasty food and it's not just bare bones basics, it's absolutely acceptable to serve takeout food to your guests. You do not need to serve five dips and three salads and a choice of meats and three kugels either. Just be sure there is a little bit of variety. Your prospective guests really are coming to dine with you for the pleasure of your company. They are not looking to create extra work for you. If you can comfortably afford to buy generous servings of tasty takeout food for your family and all your guests, go for it!

amother

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 9:31 am

I'm the OP. I really appreciate the responses and perspectives. It gave me a lot to think about.

I think Luppamom and several other posters made a good point when she talks about the two types of hosting - the social guests for which you want to do a higher degree of niceness, and there are ranges of what that could mean, and the guests who just need a place and company, for which the most simple meal would be perfect. This Shabbat, we had a large group of guests who just needed a place/company. I couldn't do takeout because there were too many food restrictions, but I did a really simple meal, everyone loved it, the conversations were excellent, and it was one of the most fun Shabbat meals I've ever had.

Part of the problem when DH and I talk about hosting is that we tend to lump both situations into the same category. DH truly believes that it is socially acceptable to serve a simple meal to the social reasons guests whereas I just don't. I tried separating our social guests into categories, ie. those with high meal expectations and those with low meal expectations, and invite the low expectations guests first until I felt comfortable enough hosting to invite the high expectations guests (we haven't been married long and I'm new to hosting because I didn't grow up with it), but DH was upset that I was categorizing our friends.

I wish there was an easier way of knowing who really has those high expectations and how far you really have to go. We have friends who are crazy talented cooks who invite us for the most elaborate of meals and I just don't have the kind of time or expertise to match that level of effort. If I invite them, how simple a meal is insultingly simple? DH truly thinks they'll understand, but I feel like they would be insulted if we couldn't put more effort into it.

mille

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 11:55 am

To be honest, in terms of quality of food... Take out would be a HUGE step up for many people, some people just aren't great at cooking. Homemade chicken is not ALWAYS better than takeout. At least with takeout, the people making the food make food for a living, and it's usually pretty solid!

I love cooking, so I always cook when we have people over. Like someone else stated above, I don't really go above and beyond though, I make a normal meal and don't freak out about having 5 courses or 17 homemade "dips" or a fish and a meat and a chicken and a cholent type thing. Not my style. No complaints, my guests are always happy.

I've also done take out with close friends. Sushi, or chinese, or whatever. Usually just a casual friday night meal where we all get together in our PJs and get takeout and hang out. I probably wouldn't do it when I'm having people I'm not as close with, that seems more like a "formal" invite (they had us for shabbos lunch two weeks ago, we are "returning" the invite type deal), but that's partially because take out is EXPENSIVE! And because I like cooking and showing off LOL

As long as the take out is good quality, I don't see the issue. But if it's gonna be a significantly less quantity of food (like you are just serving deli and challah rolls and salad, thats it -- which is totally fine!), I'd make mention that it's going to be a light casual meal when you do the inviting. Maybe they'd want to eat more at kiddush.