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Just in Case

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Dolly Welsh

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 2:07 pm

If seven or eight people are taken hostage in a food store, a lot is possible. First of all, they all weigh at least a hundred pounds apiece and if they all rush the terrorist in a pile-on, they can down him.

They could link arms tightly and dance around him, close in, yelling at the top of their lungs. Then jump him, when he becomes dazed.

In a food store, there are bottles of food oil. Pour some on his face and also hands. There is vinegar and bleach. Certainly vinegar. Pour some on his face. There are cans. Bang his head with them. There is black pepper in little boxes. Pour some on his face. There is salt. Pour some on his face. There might be kitchen implements for sale; grab knives and barbecue forks.

And in any hostage situation, not a food store, you can do a Pile On.

Risky? Without that sainted Malian letting the cops in, the gunman would have blown the whole place up anyway. Those hostages had nothing to lose. He was setting the explosives all around when they entered, and stopped him. That doesn't usually happen.

So, what are you risking? You are toast anyway; might as well go out buttered.

And you might win. You might get the guy down and you might beat his head in sufficiently with cans of peas to neutralize him, all working together.

If there are two of them or more, you would have to try harder.

But you get the idea. We are women. We know what salad dressing does in the eyes. A man wouldn't think of that.

We are women. We know how disorienting it is to have a lot of people screaming in your ear at once. We have small children. A man wouldn't know that.

If you are over seventy you are excused, but otherwise, tiny woman or peace-loving man, your hundred pounds of weight is needed in the pile-on.

Some of us here have been in the army. Would they please give professional assessment.

youngishbear

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 2:21 pm

Dolly your creativity never ceases to amaze me.

I would think most people freeze in such a situation.

greenfire

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 2:25 pm

& that's where concealed weapons come into play ... you can take him down with a bullet ~ just sayin'

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 2:58 pm

Thank you. I am waiting for someone with army background to tell me that one, yes, situational creativity is good. But perhaps two, my notions might reduce the number of survivors of such incidents, perhaps by a lot.

I am waiting for a reaction from someone who really knows about these things, from being formally trained, in the realities. I am a mere old woman. My last fight was with a jar of sauce that wouldn't open. I am out of my depth here.

youngishbear

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:01 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Regarding the battle of the jar, a rubber band around the cover helps open it.

Learned it from a tupperware lady.

greenfire

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:25 pm

you can also use a can-opener or something else to pry the edge of the lid up a tad to let some air in ... then it twists right off & the sauce can breath again

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:31 pm

Don't you know that Frozen Jew is a favorite treat, any time of the year, not just in summer?

Yum yum. Tastes like sheep. Tastes like chicken.

black sheep

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:40 pm

one of the hostages did try to shoot the hostage taker, but his gun jammed at the most inopportune time and he was killed.

but I totally agree with the gist of your post, dolly, we should all be prepared at all times to fight for our lives.

greenfire

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:48 pm

yeah dolly - that's not the nicest thing to say just about now ... or ever

youngishbear

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:49 pm

I agree with greenfire. The mental image dolly conjured up there is very disturbing.

Hashem yerachem!

greenfire

Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:51 pm

black sheep wrote:

can't find the article now ... but actually the terrorist put his empty already used up gun on the counter & the hostage thought he would use it to kill him - only there was no ammunition left ... no time for reload - that's why terrorists come in with multiple weapons

myself

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 3:47 pm

May we never need to know...

Hashem, keep each and every one of us safe!

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 7:46 pm

I certainly didn't mean disrespect to the fallen.

Just that we should be on our guard to not freeze in the future.

You know this will happen again.

I was indeed trying to use somewhat arousing language, but certainly without disrespecting the fallen. The fallen didn't anticipate anything like this, and could not possibly be expected to know what to do.

However, now we can no longer say "Of course we didn't know what to do! We are normal people, not ninjas!"

Nobody can say that any more.

It is now time to do some thinking and get some plans in place for next time.

The chances of any one of us getting into a situation like this are nano-small. Tiny.

However, just in case, it is not bad to train.

We all know the Heimlich manoeuvre and nobody has ever used it. But we aren't sorry to know it.

Let us not freeze. It doesn't help anything. Prudence of course, but let us not freeze and have no ideas.

That man who picked the unfortunately jammed gun didn't freeze.

The sainted Malian didn't freeze.

I am not trying to insult anybody, I am just upset.

gp2.0

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 8:21 pm

Dolly, people who rush a trigger-happy gunman are more likely to die than people who hide.

Link arms and dance around a man with a machine gun? Are you for real?

The machine gun he had can shoot at a speed of 1,150 rounds per minute, with a 30 round magazine. (That means it takes the bullet .05 of a second to fire and he can fire 30 bullets in a little under 2 seconds? Someone correct me if my math was off here.) Knowing that, do you still think a can of peas or bottle of vinegar is really a good defense?

I have never been in the army but I know that an untrained civilian is a liability in these situations. Fighting will get you killed or turned into a human shield.

If there is an opportunity for escape, such as the terrorist moving into a different room, and you having fast access to an exit, then that is a risk worth taking - and that is what the Malian man did in this situation - he got everyone to hide, then he snuck out the fire escape, which was in a different part of the store, which he knew about because he worked there. The best chance of survival is to hide and wait for a quiet chance at escape.

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 8:35 pm

OK.

I wanted the pile-on. Seven hundred pounds of person (assuming one hundred pounds per person, assuming seven hostages) isn't nothing, even to a strong armed man. You would have to know how to get on top of him, and how to cling arms tightly together, so you couldn't be thrown off one by one.

He certainly had a tough rifle, but not a machine gun. He also had bullet proof vest front and back.

I completely agree that hiding is vastly better, if that can be done.

Nobody knows what to do without advance training.

Except the sainted Malian.

sourstix

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 8:44 pm

dolly -you are making me roll of laughter. I would love to get to know you in real life. it must be so good to be around you. you are hilarious!. keep em coming a good laugh is mans best medicine.

imasinger

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 8:48 pm

Very interesting discussion.

I am torn. It worked on 9/11 in PA, where passengers knew that the probable sacrifice of their lives would likely save thousands of others.

But a hostage situation is less clear. Who is to say all 7 hostages could move at the same speed, or be ready? Or that enough of them could move faster than a rifle could shoot? Maybe only 4 would jump, and the gunman would twist away from the weakest, reload, and fire?

There was a song that was popular on the radio when I was younger, called, "Billy, don't be a hero." These decisions are not immediately obvious to those of us who love our children more than we hate our enemies.

Dolly Welsh

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 9:14 pm

Yes.

You are certainly right many situations are not as clear-cut as that one. Over Pennsylvania, they knew they had nothing to lose.

But you notice that a small number (only four), of admittedly large, but unarmed, untrained, men did indeed simply rush the cockpit, which was held by trained, armed people.

As for hate, I don't bother with it at any time. I have better uses for my limited energies. I would never advocate getting excited or personally wrathful at anybody. It's not a personal matter.

But what do I know.

imasinger

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 9:21 pm

The part about hate was a paraphrase of Golda Meir, who famously said that we will have peace when the Arabs love their own children more than they hate ours.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Jan 17 2015, 9:59 pm

I understand you, Dolly. Personally, I would not go down without a fight, and I can be as ferocious as a dozen men. I've trained my daughter to be an absolute wildcat if anyone tries to grab her, including some choice Aikido moves. Broken wrist, anybody?

The problem is, some people who consider them "civilized society" are like sheep, and will behave like frightened herd animals when in the face of danger. We need to all believe in the fact that we CAN make a difference, and that we have the power, as you say, especially in numbers.

Civilians in this day and age owe it to themselves to think like you do, and be prepared for urban warfare. Primarily, they need to be willing to fight, and then they need to think about how they will fight. If the will isn't there first, then all the training in the world is for naught.

In other words, "I pity the fool!" (Who else remembers Mr. T?)

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