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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 17 2015, 11:12 pm
imasinger wrote:
The part about hate was a paraphrase of Golda Meir, who famously said that we will have peace when the Arabs love their own children more than they hate ours.


What does that have to do with it?

Waiting for Godot isn't working.

It's a sweet quote, but it shows a now-outdated idea of all people wanting the same thing for their children, loving their children in the same way, and in the same terms. No, they don't all want the same thing for their children. It's a big world, and there are lots of different cultures in it. Cultures can really vary a lot.

Other people love their children plenty. Just their way, in their culture's terms.

If that quote gets much older, and it's decades old now, there will be nobody left to think it is a sweet quote. And it was a sweet quote, once, too. It used to impress me. I forget when.

I mean no disrespect at all to Golda Meir z"l, a major historical figure.

I don't hate anybody, but I know everybody doesn't think like me. That is actually more respectful to others than ignoring genuine differences.

Now can we get back to the topic?

Maybe there is nothing left to say.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 17 2015, 11:38 pm
Here's the thing. Generally the terrorist comes in waving a gun and orders everyone to move to one area and not talk. Anyone who talks is shot. Anyone who moves without being directed to is shot. So the opportunity to collaborate in any way is extremely limited, and an individual acting alone will almost certainly be shot for his efforts, unless he actually has a gun or enough training to take down someone with a gun unarmed. He can't count on the person next to him finishing off what he started even if he wanted to be a martyr, because who is to say that the person next to him isn't totally paralyzed with fear, or has terrible aim or who knows what else.

This is all assuming there is only one terrorist. In the event that there are more than one, things are exponentially more complicated. I'm all for concealed carry, personally.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 4:43 am
This makes as much sense as criticising the concentration camp inmates for not using the power of their greater numbers to overcome the guards. I.e. none.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 6:34 am
I was in the (Israeli) army and I also rememer Mr. T.
I also live in an area that unfortunately has known more than its fair share of terror attacks.
That being said I have no idea what to recommend to people in a hostage situation.
I think that the variables of each situation vary tremendously and that it is impossible to generalize and to create a protocol for action.
Following the recent spate of knifings here, guidelines were informally circulated to instruct people how to best defend themselves in the event of this kind of attack. However, a hostage situation is infinitely more complex with tremendous potential for resistance to backfire. Other than recommending that as many citizens as possible go about their daily business while bearing arms I don't really know what might be suggested.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:18 am
I'm thinking of 9/11 flight 93 (?) where the travelers teamed up and overcame the terrorists. The plane ended up crashing into a field, killing everyone on board, but the intended target was saved.

A huge tragedy, but one that prevented a bigger tragedy. Can we imagine ourselves as heroes who would die to save others?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:29 am
Dolly Welsh wrote:
What does that have to do with it?


I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

My point is that four yidden lost their lives in this store. Even if your proposed football sack could have been planned and executed, who is to say that FEWER people would have died? As I mentioned, such things are not so easy in practice, especially for the inexperienced in hand to hand combat. Try it yourself with your sons and see.

And to way I was using the quote was to point out that each life is precious. Maybe the attackers didn't value their own lives, but we are taught to value ours, and our children's.

That seems to me to be as true today as it was 60 years ago.

If I had a child in that store, I would not want them to try anything so risky. If I myself were there, I would not want to leave my children without a mother. The police are properly equipped to handle such things, both in weaponry, and in training. Many times, hostage situations are resolved without the loss of innocent life.

This is from an NYPD sergeant who participated in over 150 hostage situations over 22 years on the job:

"Don't try to escape or be a hero. His bullet goes 1,200 feet a second, and you only go two feet a second. Don't try to think that you could physically take that person out."

Again, sorry for not spelling out the connection.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:45 am
Dolly, these coordinated responses that you are proposing are just that: coordinated. How are a group of strangers supposed to choreograph this manuever in split seconds? Unless there are planned, rehearsed responses, these ideas are excellent (maybe) in hindsight, but not very applicable in the moment.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:50 am
Dolly Welsh wrote:


imasinger wrote:
Quote:
The part about hate was a paraphrase of Golda Meir, who famously said that we will have peace when the Arabs love their own children more than they hate ours.


What does that have to do with it?

Waiting for Godot isn't working.

It's a sweet quote, but it shows a now-outdated idea of all people wanting the same thing for their children, loving their children in the same way, and in the same terms. No, they don't all want the same thing for their children. It's a big world, and there are lots of different cultures in it. Cultures can really vary a lot.

Other people love their children plenty. Just their way, in their culture's terms.

If that quote gets much older, and it's decades old now, there will be nobody left to think it is a sweet quote. And it was a sweet quote, once, too. It used to impress me. I forget when.

I mean no disrespect at all to Golda Meir z"l, a major historical figure.

I don't hate anybody, but I know everybody doesn't think like me. That is actually more respectful to others than ignoring genuine differences.

Now can we get back to the topic?

Maybe there is nothing left to say.

I agree that the Golda quote is not really relevant here, but I disagree with your assessment that it shows that all parents have the same sweet loving attitude toward their children. The whole point of her statement is that Islamic fanatics DO NOT prize live the way we do -- they are proud to send their children to their deaths as suicide bombers, etc. in order to kill Jews.

The fact that they have a totally different mindset is part of the problem, and something we need to realize if we are going to fight Islamic terrorism on intelligent, rather than fantasy-based, terms.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:57 am
This is an interview by Aish with a cashier from the supermarket in Paris. It's a personal account off what happened and can answer some theoretical questions
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/A-Hos.....tab=y
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 8:19 am
The men who tried to fight by throwing chairs and books at the terrorists in the Har Nof massacre were the ones who got killed. True, the ones who fought were able to give the others time to escape, but they knew they were most likely sacrificing their own lives.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 10:26 am
Dolly - The army doesn't just hand each soldier a gun and then we're protected. They spend months and months practicing how to react and how to work as a team. If every soldier took his M-16 and just started shooting where he wanted to he would probably end up killing more of his own buddies than the enemy.

If you ever see me in a supermarket holding a can of peas, just be warned - I have terrible aim and I'd probably hit you in the head if I aim for a terrorist.

Where I live most the men have been soldiers and there are always some that always carry a gun. Even in my supermarket you're sure to see an armed soldier buying some food on his way home or back to base. But all that didn't help us 10 years ago when a suicide bomber blew himself up in our pizza shop taking 3 teens with him. Maybe this is back to what was said. These terrorists go on missions not planning to live (why give up their 70 virgins?). Their goal is to kill as many people as they can including themselves. Fighting back doesn't scare them. We're not talking about someone holding up a convenience store who doesn't want to get caught and go to jail. We're talking about a terrorist who plans to die.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:09 am
Sanguine wrote:
Dolly - The army doesn't just hand each soldier a gun and then we're protected. They spend months and months practicing how to react and how to work as a team. If every soldier took his M-16 and just started shooting where he wanted to he would probably end up killing more of his own buddies than the enemy.

If you ever see me in a supermarket holding a can of peas, just be warned - I have terrible aim and I'd probably hit you in the head if I aim for a terrorist.

Where I live most the men have been soldiers and there are always some that always carry a gun. Even in my supermarket you're sure to see an armed soldier buying some food on his way home or back to base. But all that didn't help us 10 years ago when a suicide bomber blew himself up in our pizza shop taking 3 teens with him. Maybe this is back to what was said. These terrorists go on missions not planning to live (why give up their 70 virgins?). Their goal is to kill as many people as they can including themselves. Fighting back doesn't scare them. We're not talking about someone holding up a convenience store who doesn't want to get caught and go to jail. We're talking about a terrorist who plans to die.


Same in my neck of the woods, tons of soldiers and armed citizens all over but in our case it did b"h help - 14 years ago someone managed to shoot dead a terrorist in our local supermarket before he blew himself up. So it's really a matter of chance, but the more armed people there are the higher the chances that such attacks will be thwarted. A couple of months ago, when an arab stabbed people at the Rami Levy outside of Jerusalem, it was an armed citizien who shot him and prevented him from continuing his rampage. That said, when I go food shopping at our Rami Levy, though there are always soldiers, police and security people nearby, I am still nervous b/c though a large scale hostage scenario is unlikely, all it takes is a few seconds for someone to pull a knife and attack the people standing next to him/her before they are apprehended.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:41 am
etky wrote:
all it takes is a few seconds for someone to pull a knife and attack the people standing next to him/her before they are apprehended.
That's because terrorists don't care if they're caught (killed). They're not like a mugger on the subway who grabs a purse or gold necklace and runs to safety. It's almost impossible to prevent everything cause they're fearless. They don't worry about their own life. We only beat them cause we're smarter than them.
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abound




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 11:44 am
stem wrote:
The men who tried to fight by throwing chairs and books at the terrorists in the Har Nof massacre were the ones who got killed. True, the ones who fought were able to give the others time to escape, but they knew they were most likely sacrificing their own lives.


according to witnesses, Rabbi Kupinsky's last words were "Run, I'll fight", He knew he will die, he was just trying to give people around him time to run. He gave his life so others can live.
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pumpernickle




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 12:24 pm
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:43 pm
In virginia tech students hid under desks and the killer just went down the rows, picking them off one by one.

It's easy to talk big about what you would do in such a situation. I also wondered why there weren't cans and bottles flying, but did they have access to those things? Would they have been able to grab a can and throw it without the terrorist noticing? Would their aim have been good enough? How hard would it be for him to duck? And he has the gun, not you. All you have is your salad dressing.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 2:22 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
Risky? Without that sainted Malian letting the cops in, the gunman would have blown the whole place up anyway. Those hostages had nothing to lose.

Most of them came out alive. So I think it's safe to say they had a lot to lose.

In fact it sounds like from the point where they were together as a group of hostages (ie, the point where the idea of working together to jump on the guy would be relevant), all but one lived.

I don't know what the best advice is in general (I would guess that, as previous posters said, there is no "in general" because situations vary so wildly), but in this situation it seems like the approach the hostages took worked out very well.

I understand that you're not trying to blame the victims chv"s. I'm more worried that what you're suggesting could make a hostage situation worse.

It's true that if the police hadn't broken in, things could have been worse. Which is why the police broke in.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:55 pm
The police didn't get in so fast because they broke in. It's hard to get through a metal store gate if you don't have the key. The sainted Malian did indeed have the key; he snuck out a rear exit, and gave it to the police, so they could get through the gate fast enough. That highly unusual occurrence is the only reason anybody survived at all. It is not silly to say that hostages have little to lose. The gunman was wiring the place to take everybody out, and he would have, if not for the sainted Malian.

The Malian is the only reason - and it was still an open miracle, with all that firing going on - that all but one of them lived.

I am certainly not blaming the victim!

I notice from the lucid and brave account by the Jewish woman cashier, linked to upthread, that the gunman seemed interested in convincing the hostages of his rightness, and in making speeches. He carefully explained his intentions, motivation, plans, and reasons. He wanted to calm the hostages down. They wanted to calm him down. But he had plans and stated them. The hostages' actions were an unknown. Unknown to the gunman. So talked, he did.

This can be read as a plain sign that he was afraid.

Afraid of a group pile-on. Just because you are young, strong, motivated, heavily armed, and heading to desired martyrdom, does not mean you are immune from fear.

He was scared. He was outnumbered, knew it, and was scared. So he talked. He joked that the store food was now free. He waited, dragged it out. Why? He needed a media response, because the whole thing was to negotiate about another situation. And, to get publicity.

He waited long minutes for a police operator. He wanted to talk directly to her. He wanted to advertise, and publicize his point.

The other side is always scared, unless they are drugged, which, admittedly, they often are.

Somebody upthread mentioned the concentration camps.

The camp was a geographically isolated area, with lots of guard towers and barbed wire, to contain an exhausted, ill fed, untrained population - of, say, women. Let us speak of the women's side of the camp. Not a very scary population, right? Starving civilian women? Yet: lots and lots of precautions were taken by the evil ones, to control this population.

Why? To prevent exactly a rushing of the guards.

All that hardware was expensive, in men and materiel, those towers and guards, but it was deemed prudent to have it, around so many, many people - starving, female, people - who had: nothing to lose. Of course the inmates didn't do much. There were enough towers and guards.

But look how possible the inmates' doing things was considered, as can be easily read, by the measures put in place to prevent exactly that.

At the time of the Shoah, the Shoah hadn't happened yet, and nobody knew what was happening, and going to happen; it was inconceivable. We can't say we don't know, now.

The guy who shoved his way in, because he wanted challah for Shabbos, was shot right away. Probably because he was male and excited and trying to get out.

There must be You Tube videos about how a bunch of women can pile on top of a gunman.

Seven women weigh seven hundred pounds. What to do about that, I don't know.

But it might be time to think outside the usual boxes.

As for shopping near knife-wielders, let someone google "Kevlar clothing". I hear it exists, and looks normal.

And the masses inside the Velodrome d'Hiver, seventy years ago? They should have insisted on being killed right there. Why? To stink up Paris. To upset Paris.

One thing the Shoah accomplished was keeping the smells well East, out of the spotlight on the major European cities.

I don't see why anybody has to cooperate with such neatness.

Paris was allowed to go on living normally. Perhaps it should not have been allowed that, with a thousand smelly corpses right there. Wheee oh. Can that be ripe. Oh yes. And if you want to burn them, that smells too.

But of course then, nobody knew they were doomed. They hoped. It is natural to hope. They thought they might be able to endure war-labor and resettlement. That was a natural thing to think, then.

You have body weight. You can smell bad. There may not always be a Malian to help us.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:30 pm
What all if this says to me is that ALWAYS we only have HASHEM to help us. He will decide when and how we die. Our only choice is to fear and serve Him.

The illusion of control is just that, an illusion.

Don't fear the terrorists, fear aveiros. Fear Hashem.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 6:14 pm
Yes. That cashier said it too, "emunah" she said. Sweet girl. Tough, too.

Let us hear only good news.
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