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Women have rights, you know
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 17 2015, 11:08 pm
polygamy was popular hundreds of years ago, when women had no rights of their own and all their property, children, and rights were tied to their husband. women couldn't work, couldn't go outside alone for fear of being attacked, couldn't even divorce just because they wanted to or because their husband was mean. they didn't pick their marriage partner, their father decided who they would marry, and they were stuck with that man for life, even if he was a monster. given those circumstances, I can even understand why some women might be happy with polygamy, who wants to be the only object of affection of someone you don't even like? better to share the misery. and marriage in those circumstances was not a relationship of love and emotional support, but rather a business association of necessity: he needs someone to bear his children, she needs financial support and protection.

but welcome to the future, folks. women have rights. we choose our own husbands. we divorce if the marriage isn't going the way we want it to. we can work to support ourselves. we have first rights towards custody of our children in a fight. we have power! so, what in the world are some women here on imamother doing debating polygamy? why are some women discussing what they would do if their husbands wanted another wife? why are some women getting upset and nervous by the discussion? (I understand why women are upset by this, I am just posing this question to get to my point.) we are no longer second class citizens, and if your husband does something you don't like, you can stand up for yourself, and you can even leave him! there is nothing to be worried about, and there is really nothing to discuss. and really, any women these days who joins a polygamous relationship should be told about her rights. we are no longer property or objects, and marriage is no longer a way for a woman to find protection from the big bad world.

but the torah allows for polygamy, you say? great, the torah also allows for child brides, and for corporal punishment of children, and the gemarrah even talks about a rebbe that beats his student to death and he is not liable because he "did it out of love." and the torah allows for slavery. so if the torah allows a practice that in our times is known to be immoral, we don't do it. we don't allow a rebbe to beat our sons to death out of love. we don't buy and sell slaves. we don't marry our daughters off to older men when they are 10 years old. and we don't add wives to our loving family, just because it is allowed by the torah.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 12:53 am
The fact is that in many places in 2015 fathers effectively choose their daughters' husbands and their sons' wives.

The fact is that in some communities romantic love is scoffed at as an oxymoron (romance is imagination based infatuation, not true love yadayada) and marriage is a business partnership of convenience.

The fact is that many women with next to no education or career, trapped with half dozen kids, are effectively married to dysfunctional or unloving husbands for protection and financial support.

And if women like me dare talk about rights of women today we are "feminists" who are "anti-torah" and "destroyers of tradition and families" and face social ostracization and rejection from our own families.

Ladies from such communities, have you achieved true romantic love despite the misogynistic attitude that prevails?
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:01 am
Those women need to be educated about their rights.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:05 am
black sheep wrote:
Those women need to be educated about their rights.


How will it help me if I get ostracized for talking about my rights?

Supposedly using the word "rights" is what caused all my problems in the first place.
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:10 am
Keep talking. Keep speaking up for what you believe in. Don't let someone else dictate to you what you should and shouldn't say.

Personally, I have been called a feminist by someone who did not mean it as a compliment, and I said with a smile, why thank you!
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:22 am
I would stand on the rooftops with a megaphone and shout my message.

If others wouldn't suffer because of it. Especially my children.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 2:10 am
If we want things to change, we have to start working on the next generation. We have to teach our daughters and sons that things can be different. If we keep perpetuation the ways we were brought up (if we're unhappy with them), then nothing will change.

See my sig line, below.
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frumjewishgirl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:01 am
Why does the Torah allow for these crazy stuff to happen? Why does G-d show in his Torah that he allows all of this?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 3:04 am
frumjewishgirl wrote:
Why does the Torah allow for these crazy stuff to happen? Why does G-d show in his Torah that he allows all of this?


The proof can be stuff from gemarah that I never learned so how would I refute it anyway?

But that's besides the point since there's no one to ask questions from or argue with. The act of arguing itself automatically brands you as a rebel.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:43 am
Why does it brand me as a rebel? Judaism thrives on questions.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 7:35 am
There isn't much to argue with, in most circles this DOES NOT HAPPEN and for some time already.

I think there's an amother or two very obsessed with polygamy here, what's up
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Orchid




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 8:57 am
Black sheep, I like your post.

Except for the part not mentioned where a woman essentially needs her husband's permission to get divorced. It's called a get. Otherwise, we're pretty well off.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:37 am
Ruchel wrote:
There isn't much to argue with, in most circles this DOES NOT HAPPEN and for some time already.

I think there's an amother or two very obsessed with polygamy here, what's up


My basic issue in this thread wasn't polygamy... it was my rights as a married jewish woman.

Sorry op for hijacking, sorry ruchel for confusing.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:43 am
I'm all for women knowing their rights, in marriage and outside. Maybe you could collect infos and make a booklet?
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 12:40 pm
frumjewishgirl wrote:
Why does the Torah allow for these crazy stuff to happen? Why does G-d show in his Torah that he allows all of this?


there was a time when families benefited from polygamy
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:00 pm
Read the Torah. Polygamy was never the ideal. The Torah allowed for some things like genocide, polygamy, eesha yifat toar, the idea that a rapist should marry his victim that worked in the paradigm of ancient times but not now.

Black sheep I like your post and I think some women here truly beleive that they are meant to be second class citizens and it's sad :/
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:16 pm
some people confuse "not assur" with "a mitzvah." polygamy isn't assur, but it certainly isn't a mitzvah.

but even more shocking to me, and what inspired my post is the response of many women on this board who accept a lower class status for themselves and even think it is ideal. do they know what century we are living in?

if you find yourself surrounded by people who are misogynistic, all the more reason to strengthen your feminist resolve. how do any women allow misogynistic men (and women, from what I am reading here) to determine their fate? try speaking up, and then not backing down. as a woman in 2015, your fate and status is in your own hands. don't give it up to anyone else.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:17 pm
Orchid wrote:
Black sheep, I like your post.

Except for the part not mentioned where a woman essentially needs her husband's permission to get divorced. It's called a get. Otherwise, we're pretty well off.


According to the Cherem of Rabainu Gershom - a man may not divorce his wife against her will.

It works both ways.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:20 pm
black sheep wrote:
some people confuse "not assur" with "a mitzvah." polygamy isn't assur, but it certainly isn't a mitzvah.

but even more shocking to me, and what inspired my post is the response of many women on this board who accept a lower class status for themselves and even think it is ideal. do they know what century we are living in?

if you find yourself surrounded by people who are misogynistic, all the more reason to strengthen your feminist resolve. how do any women allow misogynistic men (and women, from what I am reading here) to determine their fate? try speaking up, and then not backing down. as a woman in 2015, your fate and status is in your own hands. don't give it up to anyone else.


I think that I'd like to add something, but that I do not really possess the proper time to explain it correctly. I just hope that it will be understood correctly and not taken in a extreme way. I believe that in order to be a true feminist you have to accept both the general strengths and weaknesses of females... as do males. Although there are always individual exceptions, being a female comes with both pluses and minuses, as does being a male. As a female, it is your job to work with those minuses and better the pluses. It works that way in life too. Only one an individual accepts, acknowledges, and validates his/her own true weaknesses and true strengths can the individual truly respect, validate, and advocate for oneself. Pointing out a general shortcoming is not the same as being a misogynist, but failing to recognizing an area where one is lacking is most definitions being self-loathing and harmful. I am in no way saying that women are second hand citizens or meant to be second hand citizens: I am saying that in order to be first class citizens all women and all individuals must acknowledge their strengths and weaknesses because that creates the truest, strongest self.
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 18 2015, 1:26 pm
scrabble, women can do anything men can do. there are no weaknesses inherently "female." I don't agree that in order to be a feminist you must accept that women have inherent weaknesses. that sounds pretty misogynistic to me.
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