women have rights, you know

etky

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:56 pm

black sheep wrote:

Frumdoc, exactly!

Halacha does not always seem to be on the woman's side, or rather I should specify, men can treat women badly and still be within the boundaries of Halacha. There are men that use this to their twisted advantage, and there are women who suffer. If American women can and have successfully achieved equal status, then we can do the same within our smaller communities. I am very happy that there are orthodox women in Israel starting their own political party. I am also happy that recently, a female community spiritual leader was appointed in Efrat. These are sample steps towards women having more of a voice in Jewish issues. Eventually, I hope that orthodox Judaism will no longer keep women behind the scenes, and that women who need a get, as one example, will have not only men but also women in power who can help them.

.

Just to clarify, lest anyone get the wrong impression that this step represents anything to do with Israeli officialdom I.e. the Rabbanut, the Religious Services Ministry or any govt. body- it is a private appointment by the mara d'atra of Efrat who will finance the position through a number of privately backed associations. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I've already read a number of reactions by 'regular' Israelis who think it's superfluous b/c they can't fathom the difference between this position and the classic role of the 'rebetzen'. Those were the kind remarks....

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 5:09 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

It is fine if you want to define feminism as so called "third wave" and distance yourself from that, but the facts remain that in halacha, as well as culturally in the orthodox and even more in the charedi world, women are absolutely second class citizens in public, in law and in their own homes (for many). Halachically, we depend on the good will of men, individually (agunot, inheritance), in a court of law (batei din in Israel and outside will refuse to listen to a woman and is under no obligation to do so as she is not a valid witness even of her own experiences) and as a group (learning Torah, public speaking, t driving, public blame of all crises on lack of tznius).

Sure, many frum women have taken advantage of women's rights in the workplace, but in our own communities it would be an extremely blinkered or rose colored view to deny there are real issues that aren't about partnership minyanim or wearing tefillin (although those are valid concerns for some) but are about basic realities we live with daily.

Accept/tolerate/rationalise/ make it about women having a so called higher spiritual level or deal with it in whatever way you chose to, but to deny it is worse than stupid.

I am a frum woman and I have never felt like a second class citizen in or outside the home.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 5:41 pm

The article raised an interesting question for me. Since women "are more comfortable" speaking to women about certain issues, it follows that female religious leaders will never be perfect equals of their male counterparts and some degree of difference will always remain between religious leaders of each gender.

I was also ruminating on the fact that while MLK had dreamed of a color blind America, there will never be a gender blind world because of reverse discrimination, and segregation by choice. For example, many women feel more comfortable going to female obgyns... and the very gender of the doctor is the reason.

So while we may make progress with getting rights, equality will never be reality.

Simple statement of fact.

black sheep

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 6:27 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I am a frum woman and I have never felt like a second class citizen in or outside the home.

Good for you. Neither have I, but that doesn't stop me from understanding the plight of many women who are treated as second class citizens.

Have you ever tried to get divorced against your husband's will? Have you ever tried to seek help for domestic violence, only to be told to be a better wife so your husband doesn't get angry? Have you ever been told by your Rebbe that you cannot use birth control, that bringing children into this world and raising them is your most important role?

If you answered no to all of these questions, that might explain why you never felt like a second class citizen. But some women answer yes to some of those questions. I never experienced any of these issues, yet I can understand that my experience isn't proof of every possibility within orthodox judasim. Can you?

black sheep

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 6:28 pm

amother wrote:

FYI: opinions aren't facts.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 6:43 pm

black sheep wrote:

FYI: opinions aren't facts.

Can you imagine a gender blind reality? Do you think it's possible? (Whether such a reality is necessarily all good is a separate issue).

And I'm not talking about inequality regarding legal or social rights.

Can you imagine a day when women will not be uncomfortable talking about female issues with a religious leader who happens to be male? If that's the case then the whole argument of women needing specifically female representation falls apart...

I don't see how the statement that there will always be differences between the genders because of personal preferences, what I referred to as reverse discrimination, (like male lactation consultants being less desirable, for modesty reasons) is debatable.

Please share, I'm curious about your vision of that world?

Fox

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 6:58 pm

black sheep wrote:

Have you ever tried to get divorced against your husband's will? Have you ever tried to seek help for domestic violence, only to be told to be a better wife so your husband doesn't get angry? Have you ever been told by your Rebbe that you cannot use birth control, that bringing children into this world and raising them is your most important role?

This seems to be creeping closer to the kind of cultural imperialism that assumes that *my* values should be *everyone's* values, and that which *I* find intolerable should likewise be intolerable to *them*.

I don't think anyone denies the reality of these issues; in fact, most of our communities spend resources to try to ameliorate these problems.

I'm not entirely certain what you're advocating. If your goal is to see the interpretation or application of halacha significantly changed, you're probably not going to get a lot of imamothers to join that crusade.

If you're suggesting that women be more vocal in demanding that halacha actually be *followed* in instances where it is routinely overlooked (e.g., a husband's obligation to work to support his family), then I think you've got a good case.

But if you simply want all women to be "educated" to see things the way you see them, you're on much shakier ground.

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:09 pm

Unfortunately some women are worse than men so a female leader may not always help or understand.

Quote:

Halacha does not always seem to be on the woman's side, or rather I should specify, men can treat women badly and still be within the boundaries of Halacha.

Agreed.
Same also for being a rotten wife.
There are loopholes people can use, on many topics. Same for secular law btw.

Is a man a second class citizen if another man twisted halacha on him? or is just the other man a bad guy

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:28 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Unfortunately some women are worse than men so a female leader may not always help or understand.

Quote:

Halacha does not always seem to be on the woman's side, or rather I should specify, men can treat women badly and still be within the boundaries of Halacha.

But it is pervasive and commonplace, not a rarity or exception. In that case, yes, like jim crow type laws, or rather loopholes in the south years after blacks had won their legal rights.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:33 pm

Fox wrote:

I disagree with you fox, possibly for the first time... I think cases where women are powerless and endangered is a lot worse than when men are culturally encouraged to learn instead of working.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:40 pm

Fox wrote:

Wait, what?

A woman wanting a divorce, birth control, and not to be battered is suddenly culturally relative?

No. These are cases in which halachah is being violated and systemic abuse by authority figures to thwart wishes of a woman because her needs are considered secondary.

We can't ignore it because the truth is ugly. We must combat it. And while some female authority figures don't help their own kind, plenty do. There's no reason to block them all because of a few rotten apples. If we do that, well, why not get rid of rabbaim as a whole. See?

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 8:08 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I agree with your first point, I don't understand what you are suggesting as a solution though.

If we don't want women's needs ignored or considered secondary, there is no need for female rabbinic leadership, only advocacy, sensitivity training, etc. In other words, improved education and attitude shifts. It's not a matter of women being allowed to pasken shailos, rather of poskim being sensitive to women's needs as people and not mere baby machines...

eschaya

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 8:42 pm

black sheep wrote:

Immorthanamother, I have personally found that there is nothing specifically in tanach that that treats women as inferior, rather in the way it is sometimes interpreted and with how Halacha was codified. I know that Halacha was never supposed to be set in stone for so many centuries, but was meant to be evolving. In the days that Halacha was codified, as you said, it was more enlightened than the rest of the world. But now we are stuck in am enlightened view of torah from 1500 years ago.....

Black sheep - you are very right that tanach in and of itself does not treat women as inferior, but in talmud, early perushim, and even more modern mefarshim, there is a huge amount of discussion of women as inferior. Some of it horrifically so. So even if a modern frum male would want to see women as of equal value nowadays, it is almost impossible given the pervasiveness of female inferiority in the texts they learn (in addition to those attitudes being codified into halacha).
So in addition to the unwillingness to change or adapt so deeply a part of our society, it is even possible to expect a typical sheltered frum man to acknowledge the value and wisdom coming from a female if he has learned that she has no intelligence other than that of the spindle (netziv) or does not have the same level of tzelem Elokim (abarbenel)? There needs to be a huge shift in education, and probably an overemphasis on the value and abilities of women, to counteract the opposing ideas they unwittingly absorb just during day to day learning. It will take a concerted effort, not just a hope that they are decent human beings.
I have no doubt (and have discussed this with chashuv rabbamin) that the talmidei chachamim who expressed anti-woman sentiments or who were involved in the codification of halacha would have a different opinion and reach different decisions if they lived nowadays and recognized what women truly are. I don't blame them at all because no society was able to recognize that in those days. But I do have a problem with the way it is perpetuated today and its current manifestations, because our generation should recognize the inherent value, strength, intelligence and importance of women.
How do I deal with it? I fought and cried as I went through a searching and discovery period, but now I just try to forget it and focus on the aspects of my life where I have full rights and full recognition of my value and intelligence. And I always thank Hashem for allowing me to live in our times.

black sheep

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 11:03 pm

eschaya wrote:

I have no doubt (and have discussed this with chashuv rabbamin) that the talmidei chachamim who expressed anti-woman sentiments or who were involved in the codification of halacha would have a different opinion and reach different decisions if they lived nowadays and recognized what women truly are. I don't blame them at all because no society was able to recognize that in those days. But I do have a problem with the way it is perpetuated today and its current manifestations, because our generation should recognize the inherent value, strength, intelligence and importance of women.
How do I deal with it? I fought and cried as I went through a searching and discovery period, but now I just try to forget it and focus on the aspects of my life where I have full rights and full recognition of my value and intelligence. And I always thank Hashem for allowing me to live in our times.

I agree with all of your post, but this part that I cut in particular is exactly my sentiments! the gemarrah was written and halacha was codified during a period of time when women were literally considered property, not even the level of second class citizens. if the same rabbis were alive today, I also have no doubt they would make halachos that support a much more positive view of women, and the discussions in the gemarah would look a lot different too.