how do so many frum people have so much money?

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:47 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

An iphone is a one-time expense every other year and with the right contract it's not a big downpayment. Do you know what other things she's living without? All you see is the iphone. For all you know she's living without furniture and her iphone is one of her few pleasures in life.

This thread is making a lot of assumptions. It's assuming that when you see someone with a bugaboo (just for example), they are also not cutting corners in any area that you cut corners. In other words you are assuming that you both (a) make the same amount of money (b) consider the same things to be priorities in terms of how much you are willing to spend on something (c) have the same spending knowledge and spending techniques (some people always know how to find sales and some people always find coupons for everything) (d) get the same amount of presents and hand-me-downs.

Heyaaa, I was making a similar point, that the woman has an iphone yet is struggling to pay her rent, and even if it looks bad, it's none of my business and she still has the legitimate need to find work and cover her expenses. I think we are in agreement here, sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't criticizing, I was just saying that using our money in ways that we think is important and others find ridiculous is not an exclusively frum or jewish problem.

A nonjewish teenager can get a wii or playstation for their holiday and I wouldn't dream of getting my kids such expensive toys.

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:54 pm

sequoia wrote:

So there's no "Jewish work ethic"? This is purely a Protestant idea?

Fox, why are you so sure?

I don't understand the work ethic to be a problem, it's just the assumption of the outcome that doesn't jive with our concept of hishtadlus, bitachon, and bashert.

I learned and I believe that a person must make the maximum hishtadlus, which is obviously different for each individual, and impossible to judge in others. After doing that we trust Hashem to bring a bracha into our work.

Some people invest years of schooling and hard work building careers and still aren't financially successful. There are lots of skills and tools and money management advice that can help, but at the end of the day some people have mazal and some people don't.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

I get that it seems petty to talk about what other ppl have.

But when your sister in law makes a simcha and can't afford it, so the family is asked to give tzedakah for it, it rankles. Especially when its important that it look just so, so no one is ashamed??? And then when her daughter has a baby and buys an expensive carriage, its ANNOYING. Yes, she may have gotten it as gift or saved or whatever. I understand. What I don't understand is why the community and her relatives have sponsored her simchas because she can't afford to make a wedding and then her children use their "own" money for luxuries. I feel like I've been used. I also feel like I ain't chippin' in over there anymore! If you can cough up "gift money" or your own money for the stuff you want, don't you think that they could cough up money for stuff that they don't really want to do?

Agree
A family member of ours once borrowed a large amount of money from us. It's been years and they haven't paid is back yet. In the meantime they are living a life like rich wealthy people, very high standard. Expensive clothing, extremely expensive vacations, pesach in hotel, etc... While we're waiting to be see our money back.
So op to answer your question- most ppl do not have money. They play it. They have no choice. There's competition. They are unable to pay their debts and who knows about that? No one. And who will know if they won't make extremely expensive simchas or won't take lavish vacations or will not dress in very expensive clothing? Everyone! And that is why they play it.

Fox

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:14 pm

sequoia wrote:

So there's no "Jewish work ethic"? This is purely a Protestant idea?

Fox, why are you so sure?

Well, it's been a long time since I actually took courses on this stuff, but here's what I understand, and perhaps others can be more specific and fill in the blanks.

What we refer to as the "Protestant work ethic" certainly owes a great deal to the concept of hishtadlus. We can point to many, many references in the Torah to the obligation Hashem has imposed upon us to put forth effort into anything we are required to do and to work in order to create a partnerhsip with Hashem in our providence. In other words, laziness leads to bad middos.

But nowhere is the concept put forth that Hashem rewards particularly hard or productive work with parnosseh. In fact, when the Torah promises that Hashem will support us, it is usually linked with "following His commandments" -- not, "training for a lucrative career" or "working two jobs instead of one."

The Protestants latched onto these ideas for a variety of reasons, not the least of which were that the Roman Church at the time was an exercise in corruption and economic degradation of the poor and Europe was barely emerging from feudalism . They were looking for ways to explain how a just G-d could allow such injustice to exist.

Without getting too immersed in the fine points of Calvinist theology and predestination, suffice it to say that material success was an indication of G-d's approval, and that work had intrinsic religious significance.

This was a great theology for Scotland, because sheep are a lot of work. And since a huge percentage of America's early hoi-polloi came from Scotland and Northern Ireland (minus the sheep), they brought this theology with them, and grafted it sturdily into American thinking.

The problem is that it's not entirely wrong: it's quite possible that Hashem might see that we're loafing around and decide to motivate us a little.

But it's equally possible that my parnosseh got better not because I worked harder but because I was davening with more kavanah or doing more chesed or not forgetting to bentch like I usually do. Or maybe Hashem is testing us through wealth or poverty. Without Naviim, none of us has any way of knowing for sure.

The danger, of course, is that it's very easy to see parnosseh as an if-then equation. If I am hard-working, smart, and frugal, then my parnosseh will be adequate. If I lounge around eating bon-bons all day, then I won't have adequate parnosseh.

But that's like assuming that rain is caused by umbrellas. The fact that they are frequently seen together doesn't tell the whole story.

Heyaaa

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:20 pm

sequoia wrote:

So there's no "Jewish work ethic"? This is purely a Protestant idea?

Fox, why are you so sure?

It's all mazel. Every single thing that happens in your life is mazel. Your brains are your mazel. Your personality is your mazel. Your connections are your mazel.

You can choose how hard you will work but you cannot choose whether you will be successful. Hashem decides the people you will meet and the people who will buy your product and Hashem decides if you will think of the right business venture and if you will think of the right way to go about doing your business.

Yes, a person can be proud if they work hard and and they can be happy if it yields positive results but they cannot think that it is because of their hard work that positive results were yielded. Positive results were yielded only because Hashem wanted it to happen.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:37 pm

Quote:

your post is extremely derogatory, insulting and seethes with jealousy of course conveniently hidden by an amother label. Many people on these typical financial posts usually assume that people who have money get it in unorthodox ways like rich parents, govt programs, or they're in debt...therefore people who actually worked for their money feel the need to defend themselves. Yes, you can make money by working hard and im sorrry if you don't but many people do-its a simple fact. my husband works all day and most of the night without a degree and makes 200k a year. I have a degree and make 60k . we have two kids, own our home pay full tuition...yes we thank hashem every day that we are financially stable and no we don't take it for granted especially because we were once a struggling couple too who couldn't put food on the table. Yes, we feel we've 'earned' our wealth. That doesnt mean we dont thank hashem for it. I dont know why I have to point it out but obviously you can work the same hours but get paid a lot less an hour...its not rocket science. excuse the spelling and grammar typing on a small device

In response to your post which was responding to mine -

I might be hiding behind amother because of some revealing details that I wish to remain private. However, your post is the one that is derogatory.

We are extremely grateful to Hashem to be able to afford what we need, and although we struggle to make ends meet - we know that this is what Hashem wants from us, and are blessed that we have all that we do. Every purchase is carefully thought out - what will Hashem think of us spending $$ on xyz, etc.

We are not the jealous type or the type that keeps up with the Joneses. I don't usually read these types of threads, I just happened to land on it today. I don't typically think about yenem's $$ or financial decisions. However, when people say to me (out of the blue - not like I asked!) well I can afford xyz because we work so hard - I find it laughable that people really think that hard work = wealth. I happen to be an example of the opposite, however there are millions - like fox accurately stated. Just because I'm in the situation that I'm in - and gave it as an example does not make me deserving of the first sentence in your post.

Just keep in mind that when you stated that you feel that you "earned" your wealth - that is exactly what I was referring to when I said: Kochi, v'otzem yadi. - Referring to those who think that it is their hard work that brings them results. Sorry, but I think you are forgetting Someone. You can be as grateful as you can - but if you don't recognize that it comes from Hashem only because he wanted you to have it, and there is NO correlation between your hard work and your earnings - then you just have it all wrong.

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:38 pm

sequoia wrote:

Still confused.

I am trying to get a degree. I don't write the senior thesis. At all.

Are you saying I will still get the degree if Hashem wills it?

No way. That would be relying on miracles, not very acceptable.

I'm saying if you do work hard and earn your degree and set up, say, a private practice as a social worker, Hashem ultimately decides the outcome of your parnassah, your clientele and how much money you'll earn.

Or let's take as an example someone in sales. He invests time, effort, has the people skills and all other training, and even a natural knack for such kind of work. He puts his heart and soul into building a rapport with potential clients and closing deals... Still, ultimately the number of sales that work out and the amount of money he earns is not something he can control.

ETA amother above, there isn't NO correlation between hard work and wealth, but we only control the effort we put in, not the results. And your line of thinking may result in other less motivated individuals slacking off and relying on miracles because there's no connection between work and money... not ok.

We work hard, and we pray and thank for success. That's the right formula...

Last edited by youngishbear on Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:42 pm

sequoia wrote:

Still confused.

I am trying to get a degree. I don't write the senior thesis. At all.

Are you saying I will still get the degree if Hashem wills it?

No, first of all, b'derech teva, you won't get the degree. Hashem would have to perform an open miracle for that to happen, though I think I read recently about someone who had been erroneously credited with a degree on his transcript and finally confessed that he never completed it.

But Hashem might send you a particularly good advisor who would direct you toward a topic or provide other advice that makes it easier for you to complete the thesis or lead to job opportunities that your fellow students don't have.

Or you might discover that you didn't really need the degree for purposes of parnosseh.

Perhaps you'll buckle down and complete the thesis, but end up not finding a good job; having rotten colleagues; or maybe be forced to relocate someplace you'd rather not live.

Basically, we have no idea what goes into the chesbon. Someone can seem to do everything "right" and have no mazel or even seem to be punished; someone else can do everything "wrong" and come out just fine.

But we believe that Hashem keeps track of these things -- including the unseen things. That doesn't mean that He'll step in and perform open miracles to compensate for procrastination; on the other hand, He very well *might* find a way to reward us for our effort even if the academic committee didn't approve of our results.

cooksallday

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:08 pm

I'd love to hear where you live! That sounds like a nice place, I'd love to be in a community like that. do you think you could pm me if u don't mind? thx!

amother wrote:

Wow. Reading this thread makes me so very grateful to live in the community that I do. I'm waaay OOT and people are quite modest. We have a mix of very rich down to quite poor and lots of in between. Shul is not a fashion show. Everything is very laid back and people are always passing things down to one another so everyone's got kids in used clothes, etc., or pushing a fancy brand stroller that they got for free or on the cheap. A couple of women are way into fashion so they are wearing the latest styles and brands, but that's their "thing" and no one thinks anything of it or tries to keep up with them.

People also keep simchas and other things pretty simple so it doesn't create high expectations for everyone. And no one feels ashamed to put a call out for help with baking for a simcha if they can't afford the catering.

When we last visited DH's family in LA, all the materialistic conversation about stuff and money and who has what literally made DH and me sick to our stomachs. (Not bashing all of LA here, just commenting on the conversation at my in-laws house and they are all really nice people.). It opened our eyes to how non-materialistic our community is. Which is great - I don't worry that friends are burying themselves in debt just so they can keep up with the Joneses.

zaq

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:17 pm

Some people are blessed with a good head for business and plenty of chutzpah as well as a dash of ruthlessness. I had a friend who moved to a high-end neighborhood and proceeded to advertise herself as a giver of lessons in something about which she knew very little, but about which the people who lived around her knew nothing at all. And they were people with money who were willing to spend it. She had no compunction about charging big buck$ for her lessons even though she was about as qualified as a sixth grader. To really make it in business you have to have chutzpah and killer instinct. If you're embarrassed to charge what the market will bear, being in business is not for you.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 8:57 pm

Rav avigdor miller wrote in his book on Emunah and Bitachon, what does it mean that a "person is led the way he wants to go"?

"B'derech sh'adam rotzeh leileich", In the way a man wishes to go, "molichin oso" ,they are going to lead him .That means min hashamayim ,from heaven they will lead him .He writes that just like it works for health and torah it works for wealth .
He brings a source from mishlei"yad charutzim ta'shir "the hand of those who are diligent is going to become rich"

Now he continues writing that of course sometimes a person gets rich by pure luck and without trying and hashem is the sole cause but alot depends on will effort and hishtadlus .