S/O How Do Frum People Have so Much Money

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 6:53 pm

When you are checking out your neighbor to see if you can figure out how she has so much money, are you also looking at the entire picture? At what point is it no longer okay to just have 2 working spouses, who are both bringing in decent incomes, who have money to save and buy nice things? Right now I have 2 small children so I am only paying playgroup tuition. So yes, we have a house that we bought ourselves with no outside financial assistance, we own 2 cars, and have a nice savings account with some retirement money set aside. (Oh, and I have a bugaboo donkey-- somehow these threads always turn to bugaboo bashing, my bugaboo is better than your graco etc. so figured I should just put it out there.) So I guess I'm asking, why don't frum people have so much money? If both spouses are working, and saving, then what's the problem? Why the judgment? OR is your question, and everyone's questions about the finances of other people only directed at families with 4+ children who are paying tuition? And is it only directed at "kollel" people, as in, why do kollel people have so much money??

I guess the point of this thread is at what point do the people in the OP feel that they now have the right to judge and question about "how do people have so much money?"

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:00 pm

I'm actually wondering how do people survive having so many kids and sending them to yeshivas? not about how do people have so much money. I don't think everyone has so much money, but they still send them to yeshivas and have lots of kids. I'm a stay at home mom right now but I think that even if I'd be working full time, and with my husband's income, we still wouldn't be able to save much money after spending money for years on yeshivas!

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:06 pm

How old were you when you got married? And how old was your husband?

I am 23. I got married at 21. My husband was 22 when we got married. We were both in undergrad when we got married and our parents were supporting us (they still are to a less degree) and my parents aren't rolling in dough, although my husband parents are a little better off.

I am now in grad school, with 2 kids BH. My schooling requires two years of interning, unpaid. So I am going to school and paying a babysitter while my husband is working, but a good amount of his money goes to child care. And his job is just a starter job so it doesn't make a ton of money.

How much money did you and your husband come into marriage with? I had some 40 thousand as a sort of Yerusha, but that is all going to grad school tuition. If you came into marriage with money, then you could afford a down payment.

Where do you live? The NY/NJ housing market is through the roof! If you live OOT it is cheaper.

UQT

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:21 pm

You are only starting off. The price of living increases as your children get older - camp, braces, piano lessons and what not (and these are 'luxuries' for most) which leaves even those making $150,000+ and have only 4 children just making it. There are taxes, $15,000 to tzedakah,and health insurance - which in frum communities are just for the middle class. There goes my bugaboo money right there!

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:27 pm

UQT wrote:

Yes this is exactly my question! I feel like it's not so hard to live "well" when expenses are lower. So when people are judging and questioning about how frum people have so much money, are they only judging people with "real" expenses like tuition etc?

(And to the amother above who asked abt my personal situation, we got married at 20 and 22 with 7k combined in saving plus 8k wedding money. Live in ny/nj area, house cost around 500k)

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 9:48 am

I wonder why someone would make those decisions to buy expensive items even if they have the $$ for it now, when expenses really grow down the road. I have heard of ppl who bought that $500,000 home when their kids were in playgroup and suddenly when they're in school its oh, help we can't afford tuition. Or oh help they can't afford their mortgage, we must be good jews and bail them out so they don't lose their home. So then, the person who was careful all along pays bills but doesn't have the big house?? its just screwy. of course, its not always that way. and of course ppl have lousy circumstances that they could not have anticipated... don't know... just thinking out loud. I guess enough of those stories happen that the beautiful tzedaka-giving our communities are known for just seem like scams.

I also wonder where the sense of living more discreetly is. to act a little more under the radar. so the conspicuous consumption is just that - conspicuous. and it feels against what I thought we're supposed to stand for.

JAWSCIENCE

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 10:04 am

I think people are secretly asking: how does anyone, even with two earners, pay yeshiva tuition and camp fees for more than a few kids and have any money left over?

They are not asking about people who have no yeshiva tuitions or obviously have extremely high paying jobs. They are wondering how someone with a job that pays nicely but not in the 100K+ zone balance their finances to include several yeshiva tuitions, camp fees and a mortgage.

I also think that while those threads invariably turn to bugaboo bashing and pointing fingers at a nebulous group of people committing fraud on the government and tuition committees they are usually started by young individuals who are in pain because they cannot pay for their kids schooling. They are not trying to judge/point fingers or look superior. They are venting the pain of not being able to pay for their kids without asking for a tuition break and wondering if there is some secret they are unaware of (there isn't).

You bought a house before you had tuitions. When tuition kicks in for many they must pay up all their down payment savings before they can get a tuition break thus they can never own a home. Their friends who knew to buy a house earlier or who managed to save enough for the down payment before they can have tuitions are possibly eligible for tuition breaks. Some of those people may have even bought larger/more expensive homes than they needed. The person who was not able to do so feels like they are subsidizing the homes of their friends while stuck in an apartment for life. I imagine this causes a lot of agmas nefesh in people who were raised on the dream of home ownership.

mommy321

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 10:30 am

I agree, Jawscience, about the pain. I feel it because we don't have family support so we always feel behind the eight ball- my husband started his business on a loan, not a family gift. We got about $500 in wedding gifts and each paid for our own education before marriage so we didn't come into the marriage with anything. We can't afford kollel or a down payment. We're just trying to live and pay off the business loan, and once it's paid, to save.
There's actually nothing wrong with where we're holding. It's just that we're surrounded by 'mysterious' lifestyles (aka one or both spouses not working plus matching kids outfits every season, flights to Chutz'l 2x/year, private doctors/doulas/mother flying in for every baby) that seem to make no sense if you know anything about personal finance and the expected financial status and progression of a young family. I farghen them the matching clothes. It's just like, once you see what goes into supporting a young family, it's like no matter how many corners I cut, my kids will never look like their kids if we want to make rent and have (basic) food. So that's where the questions come from.

Fox

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 10:35 am

JAWScience, you said it all.

All the sniping about Bugaboos, shaitels, vacations, and government programs is a way of coping with the painful fact that frum life is increasingly a rich person's prerogative.

We routinely throw about household income numbers like $100,000 -- but that represents the top 15 percent of American households!

We have made it a virtual aveira to be average -- let alone poor! In fact, we often have more rachmones on the legitimately poor, since their financial challenges often come in tandem with health issues, etc. The husband and wife who have "average" jobs are seen as just not trying hard enough or making poor decisions.

Bugaboos, shaitels, vacations, and government programs are the deck chairs on the Titanic. We can endlessly rearrange them -- as we do on Imamother -- but they are really only a minor element of a much larger problem.

The biggest issues, IMHO, are two-fold:

* Finding a way to fund our schools that doesn't involve relying so exclusively on tuition.

* Finding ways to cope with the effects of real estate prices on our communities.

musicmom

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 11:40 am

Hello, ladies. Please stop stroller bashing. What is right for one person is not right for another. Some of us are more concerned with durability, or saving money, or usefulness in certain terrain. We all live in different places and have different needs. Some of us drive, and some of us use strollers as our primary mode of transportation.

I am getting a little perturbed that everyone chooses one in brand and everyone else covets it. Let everyone make their own choices and stop judging each other.

I have two very expensive strollers, neither of which is a bugaboo. I am not rich but do not regret my purchases. Having a lot of little kids is stressful, and whatever makes that easier for you, go for it.

I have also sold strollers for more than I paid for them on Craigslist, so experiment and have fun.

I remember the triple jogging stroller I needed to have that was too wide for the sidewalk. We had fun... until winter when I had no where to store it, as it didn't fit into doorways, such as our house. And I had another kid with no seat... Sold it for the same price I paid. Yes, it was stressful putting a bike lock on my stroller and carrying 3 little kids in and out of a store, so I am glad I got a different stroller.

I definitely feel very stressed to get all my kids dressed and fed and bundled up and out the door into the stroller, so I am glad I have a nice one that is easier for me to push, to make the job a little easier... It is definitely worth it for me to have most of my children in seats and not stress myself further keeping track of them all while walking.

Seriously, though, why Bugaboo. There is not one rainboot that is right for everyone. There is not one sheitel. There is not one brand of makeup. Let's celebrate our differences, and accept each other for who we are.

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 11:40 am

fox- there are fundraising things that schools could do if they so wished that wouldn't involve tuition- it won't cover the cost of educating kids but little bits will add up. Examples- I saw on one schools website that a certain company will give the school a percentage for anyone who decides to use that company "through" the school. I thought that was brilliant! My husband said he would imagine that his boss would be willing to do something similar-it's free advertising for the company. Amazon has a program......

ruchelbuckle

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 11:44 am

Fox wrote:

You got it!

An "askan" in a large frum community told my husband, "An average family* in this city needs $180K. Unless you're making less than $60K, and get all the programs, you need $180K to have a bit of breathing room."

(*an average family means around 4 kids).

amother

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

Where do you live? The NY/NJ housing market is through the roof! If you live OOT it is cheaper.

I wish people would stop generalizing! Yes, where I live is cheaper in term of housing, but a lot of other things -- especially taxes and auto insurance- are not.

NYC metro area is not the only High Cost of Living area in the US! Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc... are not cheap like Cleveland, Detroit, South Bend. I HATE when people lump everything into:

New York vs. the rest of the world

anonymous to protect location

monseychick

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:45 pm

UQT wrote:

camp piano lessons, "luxuries" OR Bugaboo. Choose LOL

Are there Bugaboo clones

monseychick

Thu, Jan 22 2015, 12:50 pm

amother wrote:

In theory you are right... But my father always told me... That when you come to the next world, they will question you on all your mitzvos and the level of Lishmoh. You'll be called a fraud or a scam but you can proudly say I always helped even if it was a phony, so you can give me now....

ruchelbuckle

Fri, Jan 23 2015, 5:55 am

mommy321 wrote:

There's actually nothing wrong with where we're holding. It's just that we're surrounded by 'mysterious' lifestyles (aka one or both spouses not working plus matching kids outfits every season, flights to Chutz'l 2x/year, private doctors/doulas/mother flying in for every baby) that seem to make no sense if you know anything about personal finance and the expected financial status and progression of a young family. I farghen them the matching clothes. It's just like, once you see what goes into supporting a young family, it's like no matter how many corners I cut, my kids will never look like their kids if we want to make rent and have (basic) food. So that's where the questions come from.

I've felt like this in the past, too. I know family X from my shul. He works as an accountant for firm x for 5 years, so his salary is roughly $xx per year. She is a speech therapist for the Board of Ed so her salary is roughly $xx per year. So how do they live a lifestyle as they do? newish car, landscaping service, nice sheitels, vacations, upgraded to a nicer house without selling her starter house first..... or whatever it is that doesn't seem to jive with their salaries....etc..... Some of these things are obvious-- I drive past her house on the way to the store and see she has a landscaping service sign on her lawn. I see her car. I am shmoozing with her at carpool and her vacation comes up in discussion. Etc...

When I was going through this time period, I was not "judging" or "being nosy"-- I was genuinely curious. Are they doing something that I don't know about that I could also do? Are there investments that I should be looking into? Do they only eat beans and rice and oatmeal all week so they can afford these things? Does she deal drugs on the side (just joking!) Does she clean peoples houses on Sundays? Does he stay up late running some sort of business?

So like mommy321, it wasn't about being nosy just to be a yenta. there was a true wonder if 1)am I doing something wrong? and 2) is there something else I can do to help my lifestyle be more comfortable?

amother

Fri, Jan 23 2015, 6:11 am

ruchelbuckle wrote:

A very big Rov ztl, once told my husband there are no nissim. She obviously has wealthy parents/inlaws/relatives.
Take me for example. I work very hard, practically from Havdala to Kiddush. And still, Iwe ran out of oil and were sitting in a freezing house for 2 weeks, phone and water were turned off, behind in rent.
The final clop, was my car needed 500$ in repairs. No car , no INCOME at all.
BH, DH, has a friend from his yeshiva bochur days way back when who is well connected to some gvirim and was able to call the mechanic in the 11th hour...