French Aliyah will lead to assimilation

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blueberries

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 6:56 pm

Leading religious leaders voice concerns that French Jews' immigration will result in mixed marriages, cause religious Jews to stop observing mitzvot.

A number of prominent rabbis have voiced concerns and expressed their objection to the immigration of French Jews following the recent terror attacks in France.

The ultra-Orthodox press affiliated with the Ashkenazi leadership is arguing that the aliyah from France is halachically problematic since about 50% of French Jews live in mixed marriages and will be required to undergo a conversion process.

According to sources, some of the new immigrants will not be able to convert due to the haredi demand to reject proselytes and not to welcome them into the Jewish religion.

The haredi press raised further concerns that many of the immigrants would refuse to undergo a conversion process or that the procedure would be conducted by institutions and courts which do not meet the strict standard, and that as a result their children will create mixed marriages later on.

The Yated Neeman newspaper interviewed converting rabbis and asked them whether the haredi public was prepared to absorb the immigrants from France. The rabbis said there was a concern that Jews who observed mitzvot in France would come to Israel, become involved with the secular Israelis and stop observing Shabbat and mitzvot.

Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky was quoted as ruling that a person may only make aliyah "if he finds himself in a clear religious place." Rabbi Aharon Shteinman said the call for immigration was "hasty," adding that there is no reason to make aliyah at all "as the Messiah has yet to arrive."

Rabbi Shteinman was also quoted by the Kikar Hashabat website as saying that the security situation is difficult in Israel as well and that Jews are also being murdered here.

Hapeles newspaper, which is affiliated with Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach, argued that the call to make aliyah was driven by a feeling of power drunkenness of Zionism, which the haredi perspective opposes.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articl......html

the world's best mom

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 11:25 pm

I'm confused. The title here is completely misleading. Aliyah will not cause assimilation. Jews who are already assimilated and intermarried will cause problems with regard to improper Geirus. Totally different.

DrMom

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 11:59 pm

This seems like silly anti-aliyah, anti-Israel illogical ranting. If it's so terrible here, why don't these people they quoted pack up and leave? Maybe they can emigrate to France.

5mom

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 12:23 am

Sounds like the askanim are worried about the influx of olim who won't be voting for charedi parties. Sorry to be so cynical.

sequoia

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 12:30 am

Legally, anyone who is a Jew, child or grandchild of a Jew, or spouse of any of the above, can make aaliyah. And there's nothing these chareidi rabbis can do to change that.

Why on earth do they think they're in charge?

chani8

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 2:02 am

We welcome the french with open arms, mixed marriages included!

Sanguine

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 2:55 am

Outraged at the article too. Then I read reply by reply post it's kind of funny. Nice to read. Everyone jumped in with a reaction to this ridiculous article. It's like none of these Rabbis thought to point out that Israel is too hot a country and the French will stop wearing their woolen Tzitzit Very Happy

. - They tried every other excuse.

A Jewish State can't be perfect but it will always have a lower assimilation rate than Chu"l. Simply %age wise. There are more Jews to meet (oh, but I consider secular Jews as Jews too. they may not)

Learning

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:16 am

The gedolei hador are right. Rabbi shteinmen said that it is better for them not to come and he has a reason for saying that. Some Sephardic jews who are keeping Mitzvos stop being religious when they make Aliya. The main thing is to keep the torah not to live in Israel.

DrMom

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:32 am

Learning wrote:

1. ... and Some Sephardic Jews who are *not* keeping mitzvot become *more* religious when they make aliyah. (Also:
- Some Ashkenazi Jews who are keeping mitzvot stop being religious when they make aliya.
- Some Ashkenazi Jews who are *not* keeping mitzvot become *more* religious when they make aliyah.)

Overall, I'd bet that there is a net gain in mitzvot after vs. before aliyah; it is so much easier to keep mitzvot in E"Y. Plus there are more mitzvot one can do here.

BTW, Rabbi Shteinman doesn't sound Sephardic. Why is he singling them out?

2. One cannot keep any mitzvot if one has been murdered.

3. Rav Shteinman immigrated to E"Y from Europe. Why did he do that if being here is such a terrible place for doing mitzvot? And why does he think he can be observant here, but French Jews are incapable of this?

Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total

Sanguine

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:34 am

Learning wrote:

I guess he's not a big supporter of the Rambam

The Rambam says in hil. Mlachim 5, 12

Quote:

a person should always live in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city of gentiles, and not in chu"l even in a Jewish city

.

And we're not even talking gentiles, we're talking other Jews

Sanguine

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:41 am

DrMom wrote:

BTW, Rabbi Shteinman doesn't sound Sephardic. Why is he singling them out?

Maybe he's afraid of intermarriage - The sephardic Jews will marry the Ashkenaic ones and the Ashkenaic Jews will marry the sephardic Jews. It seems to be a big Chareidi worry while DL are intermarrying. (My Teimani neighbor has a handful of blond grandchilren - OY Assimilation)

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:38 am

What a huge load of puppy piddle. Rolling Eyes

Not that I'm recommending intermarriage to anyone, but I know several couples where the OTD Jewish spouse was brought back to observance because the non Jewish spouse wanted to convert and live a fully Orthodox life. G-d works in mysterious ways!

etky

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:58 am

5mom wrote:

Sounds like the askanim are worried about the influx of olim who won't be voting for charedi parties. Sorry to be so cynical.

Just like Tzippi Livni who said that French Jewry shouldn't make aliya unless they were coming for ideological, Zionistic reasons (as if the overwhelming majority of Jews who immigrated to Palestine/Israel did so for ideological reasons rather than fleeing persecution....). Everyone knows that if they come en-masse it will mean extra support for right wing or sephardi -religious parties like Likud, Shas, Eli Yishai, Bayit Yehudi etc. - NOT for Labor/Hatenuah (despite their "Newspeak" name המחנה הציוני.)

DrMom

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 7:28 am

etky wrote:

I find it mind-boggling that someone calling herself a member of the "Zionist Camp" would tell Jews not make aliyah if they are being persecuted in their home country! Sounds a lot like the "anti-Zionist camp" to me!

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 8:46 am

Many different rabbis, inside France and abroad, have various ideas on whether we should make alia, yes no individual answers. Whatever people do, clearly most French yeshivish are like Anglo yeshivish not ready for the charedi package. As for those who are traditionalist and would send to public Israeli, they may also encounter drawnbacks and surprises.

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 9:01 am

I will probably regret this because I get a lot of attacks as a non tzioni etc, but my husband just told me he read this article and he thinks the assimilation from non jews is not so relevant. The most assimilated, those married with non Jews, generally won't come. The non Jewish children, either. Those who will, are very into identity and happily convert here or in Israel. They generally don't wear kippa (!), don't frequent shuls and kosher shops or wtv they are not recognizable and also not attracted.

Now if they fear frei Jews, or lite-traditional ones, yes those ones may arrive.

Sanguine

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 10:55 am

Ruchel wrote:

I will probably regret this because I get a lot of attacks as a non tzioni etc,

If you're a non-tzioni, that's your business. I don't eat only chalav Yisrael (I eat Hershey chocolates :-)) and that's my business. But the Rav's in this article are leaders in the Chareidi world and their followers follow whatever they say without ever questioning them even if what they said here is mostly rubbish. Their excuses would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad that they're encouraging Jews to remain in a country that keeps proving that anti-semitism is getting out of hand there. When will they wake up and smell the coffee? How many more Jews have to die?

Imogen

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 12:48 pm

Rabbonim are flesh and blood, gifted, brillliant and mortal. Our history is littered with the tragedy of not getting out in time!!!!

No Rabbi has the right to tell others not to leave their country of residence when threatened with anti semitism, surely history has taught us not to be so reckless with the live of others. Yemeni Jews were encouraged by some to remain in Yemen rather than make aliya, some haredi even fund to this day the small yemeni Jews remaining to stay put, well not a place to think about now as Yemen is tormented by Islamic fundamentalism and violence.

Israel

Sanguine

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 1:18 pm

These Rabbonim are afraid of change. Why do Chassidim in hot countries wear fur hats in the summer? (why did they ever wear them- what's the source for the chumra of fur hats?) - Maybe when Moshiach comes the'll be able to take off those hot shtreimels in the summer in Israel Wink

.

They're afraid of allowing any change. Afraid to let people move. Afraid to lose their control.

dancingqueen

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 1:26 pm

It is shocking that rabbis who remember or whose parents remember the holocaust would tell other Jews to stay in Europe if they feel unsafe for any reason.

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