French Aliyah will lead to assimilation

black sheep

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 1:38 pm

Learning wrote:

The gedolei hador are right. Rabbi shteinmen said that it is better for them not to come and he has a reason for saying that. Some Sephardic jews who are keeping Mitzvos stop being religious when they make Aliya. The main thing is to keep the torah not to live in Israel.

he is very wrong. the main thing is to live. and the second main thing is to be open and loving to all jews, not to tell them to stay in a country where the next world war is brewing and specifically targeting jews.

imaima

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:41 pm

DrMom wrote:

1. ... and Some Sephardic Jews who are *not* keeping mitzvot become *more* religious when they make aliyah. (Also:
- Some Ashkenazi Jews who are keeping mitzvot stop being religious when they make aliya.
- Some Ashkenazi Jews who are *not* keeping mitzvot become *more* religious when they make aliyah.)

Overall, I'd bet that there is a net gain in mitzvot after vs. before aliyah; it is so much easier to keep mitzvot in E"Y. Plus there are more mitzvot one can do here.

BTW, Rabbi Shteinman doesn't sound Sephardic. Why is he singling them out?

2. One cannot keep any mitzvot if one has been murdered.

3. Rav Shteinman immigrated to E"Y from Europe. Why did he do that if being here is such a terrible place for doing mitzvot? And why does he think he can be observant here, but French Jews are incapable of this?

He must have been in a clear place religiously

rae gi

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:46 pm

etky wrote:

Just like Tzippi Livni who said that French Jewry shouldn't make aliya unless they were coming for ideological, Zionistic reasons (as if the overwhelming majority of Jews who immigrated to Palestine/Israel did so for ideological reasons rather than fleeing persecution....). Everyone knows that if they come en-masse it will mean extra support for right wing or sephardi -religious parties like Likud, Shas, Eli Yishai, Bayit Yehudi etc. - NOT for Labor/Hatenuah (despite their "Newspeak" name המחנה הציוני.)

Don't get me started on Tzippi Livni, our very own Benedict Arnold.

Imogen

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:47 pm

Israel is a homeland and refuge for Jews, all Jews.

No one is forcing any one to come, if people feel happier at the thought of moving elsewhere let them be well and be strong and move where their heart takes them.

My kids in the IDF have told me of the number of European recruits increasing each year, recruits into the IDF please note, these young men and women make aliyah and are content to do their duty and serve their country. No one has the right to look down on another, the ethnic and religious background chat behind the debate about French Jewry moving en masse to Israel does no one any credit, just reveals old prejudice and ignorance. Yes Sephardi families have moved to Israel and become irreligious, Ashkenazi families too, happens in the diaspora as well, but if you leave Judaism in the diaspora it is hard to rejoin, in Israel the door is always ajar and easier to kick wide open. I can understand those that make aliyah and those that do not, I cannot understand those that fear French aliyah for fear of assimilation. I am sorry I would prefer a living Jew , than a dead tzaddik. No I am not being dramatic, open your history books and ask your grandparents where they came from. Also please note we are Jews and as much as we revere great rabbonim, our Gedolim are not treated as modern day saints, unfalliable and beyond reproach, just read a bit about religious parties in politics and grow up.

sequoia

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 7:24 pm

Learning wrote:

Rabbi shteinmen is the Gadol hador for the charedi world and this is his opinion as a daas Tora. Whoever don't follow his way has obviously different opinion.

Under the circumstances, then, his view is not relevant. The people who he thinks shouldn't come don't care about what he says either way.

StripedFlower

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 5:04 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

What a huge load of puppy piddle. Rolling Eyes

What a huge load of apikorsus!

I this how you talk about the Gedolei Hador?

I'm disgusted with you, as well as others on this thread making fun of the words of the gedolim.

You don't agree, that's your business, but to talk this way is beyond unacceptable and a terrible aveirah.

I thought this was a frum site.

StripedFlower

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 5:07 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

What a huge load of puppy piddle. Rolling Eyes

5mom

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 5:12 am

One can respect gedolim and still think they are uninformed about current events. A lot of Jews died in Europe because they followed the advice of gedolim who didn't grasp the situation at hand.
There are plenty of frum people who don't think that a talmid chacham is necessarily qualified to set social policy.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 5:13 am

I think it's important to be clear on who's saying what.

It sounds like "the hareidi press" is expressing concern that Israeli Jews might marry non-Jewish French people of Jewish origin.

"Converting rabbis" expressed concern that some French Jews might stop keeping mitzvot if they make aliyah.

Rabbi Shteinman expressed doubt that French Jews will be safer in Israel and said they have no religious obligation to make aliyah.

Rabbi Kanievsky said people should make aliyah only if they are clear about where they are religiously.

IOW the hareidi gedolim did NOT say that French Jews might stop keeping mitzvot in Israel, or that they shouldn't come even if their lives are in danger in France more than they are in Israel.

Sanguine

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:25 am

StripedFlower wrote:

Yes, it is a frum site but it's no longer only Chareidi. Many MO people are very learned but they do other things too. So we'll ask a Rav when we have a Shaila but then we might insist on understanding where the answer came from. We treat the Torah as something that we keep learning. Not a rule book that only a few people hold.

We don't change the rules (Halachot) but we understand them. The Torah has to be in sync with the current world. We no longer sit in the dark on Shabbat. Modern electricity allows us to have light and hot food on Shabbat. Hashem has given us the modern world. Life is easier. People are living longer (I think most Chareidim use antibiotics too). We can't close our eyes to the modern world.

I will ask my Rav but if he tells me to step in front of a speeding train because Hashem decides who lives. I'll give him the Kavod of going first.

rae gi

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 8:54 am

StripedFlower wrote:

Ha! What do you think of people saying the Zionists were conspirators with the Nazis? Pot, meet kettle.

Peanut2

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 12:48 pm

Learning wrote:

Rabbi shteinmen is the Gadol hador for the charedi world and this is his opinion as a daas Tora. Whoever don't follow his way has obviously different opinion.

Yes, his view. Call and ask him what he thinks.

These gedolim are so badly misquoted, and even when the quote is correct it's often so badly out of context it's sad. There are videos of R Shteinman on YouTube (and of other charedi leaders) and you can actually see how people are trying to get specific quotes out of them. They have a sharp sense of humor, for those who get the cynicism and can follow the conversations. They get asked things like "should French Jews move to Israel if it will mean that instead of being frum and doing mitzvot they will become chiloni and marry non Jews?" And then the rabbi will reply "really? That's what will happen?" Then eventually "one should know where he is religiously first". Seriously, this is on the Internet and both amusing and very sad. Lots of grains of salt.