Woman in America, Not allowed to drive.

4everonadiet

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:45 pm

Deep wrote:

The "control" argument is full of holes. Any chassidista will readily acknowledge that contemporary chassidus places way more restrictions on the men. From underwear to eyeglasses, outings to education - women have a lot more leeway in every single aspect of life. I do not profess to be an expert on the evolution of contemporary chassidus. Nevertheless, I believe the no-driving ban for women and Rabbanim is a remnant of an era in which "es hot nisht gepast" for certain people to drive.

Thank you. You expressed basically what I wanted to say. I was just having a hard time doing so.

nylon

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:47 pm

That isn't a hole. Saying one thing is about control doesn't mean other things aren't.

Restricting where and when a woman can go places--that is one kind of control.

In BP and Willy, is it such a hardship? Probably not. It is an inconvenience but not such a brutal one; many Brooklynites do not drive regularly by choice and welcome that they are able to. They can walk to the grocery, have things delivered, if it's particularly out of the way they call a car service. No dealing with keeping a car and parking it. It is the women in Monsey and KJ who have the biggest issue with this, I think. In the city the distances are so much shorter. It is a very big deal not to drive in Monsey. It ensures that chassidish families have to live in certain areas, or it makes life very difficult for the women. "Influences"? influence her to go places, see things, do things? Keeping people from "influences" is control. You can see that positively or negatively (I am more negative). But the essence of ALL these rules are to control people's lives and actions.

4everonadiet

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

The men go to yeshiva/dorm and can sneak out of there to do whatever they want. The men go to shul and can be there for hours or rather sneaking off to do whatever they want. Oh and men drive so its easier for them to get away if they need to. I've heard plenty of stories about men sneaking off to do things so don't bother denying it. Women generally stay at home with their kids, don't go to shul, don't drive, and are generally more supervised than the men so no, they don't have more leeway when it comes to these things.

I honestly don't get what you're arguing here. The mens' restrictions are still there. That they're still managing to do the wrong thing comes as no surprise. What I do find surprising is that we women just keep on taking more restrictions on ourselves.

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:50 pm

sourstix wrote:

so your grandmother was in that part that wasnt doing what they should not have according to rabonim in those days. I am sorry if it hurts, I really dont mean to I am just clarifying what meant to do like the alte heim. its something that chasidim try to hold on to. I cant mock their intentions though I dont understand it fully. but there is something to it. and then again if our grandmothers didnt cover their knees does that mean when we do whats right we are being extreme? pure halacha isnt extreme. the extras like seams on tights are extreme although the intentions behind it had a reason. obviously those problems arent around. we have different ones and that doesnt mean rabanim are controlling and it doesnt mean if we do what halacha tells us to do that we are extreme. look I might be rambling a little I am tired

First, whose to say that we are right today? Our grandparents weren't religious enough for you? Didn't they also follow the Torah? Second, the argument is that we want to maintain the status quo of our grandparents/the alter heim. How exactly are we doing that if we keep changing things instead of following what they did? And if we keep changing things then why can't we also change the no driving ban and allow women to drive?

4everonadiet

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:52 pm

nylon wrote:

As far as I understood, deep was trying to say that the ban on driving doesn't originate from a place of control. And that's what I believe.

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:56 pm

amother wrote:

What determines your choices? Der alter heim or haluche?

Chloe

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:59 pm

You can try denying the control issue. But it won't work, because you cannot deny the truth. If you would research and delve into the reasons behind the driving ban, as I did, you will see it very clearly.
I've spoken to educators and community leaders and have done so for a purpose, which I will not go into now. I'm not just saying it to kick up a debate.
Perhaps if women would see it for what it is, it would be easier to have them take charge and control of what is rightfully theirs.

Deep

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:00 pm

nylon wrote:

"Influences"? influence her to go places, see things, do things? Keeping people from "influences" is control. You can see that positively or negatively (I am more negative). But the essence of ALL these rules are to control people's lives and actions.

Exactly my point. The most chassidishe groups today have no issue with women frequenting malls, vacationing with friends in Florida or hanging out at the library. All of the above are frowned upon (but not taboo) for men. If the driving ban is about control, it would be the men who would be banned.

4everonadiet

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:02 pm

pause wrote:

It's a competition out there; the frummest, I.e. most chumras, wins the "best chassidus" award.

You're right. Wow. I'm agreeing with almost everyone today. We women are contributing as much as anyone in this race to be the frummest. Most tznius rules are dreamed up by women.

pause

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:03 pm

Deep wrote:

Just for the record, all chassidishe schools that I know have a ban on the above mentioned things: mall, Florida and library.

Chloe

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:06 pm

The funny thing is, that the driving ban is pretty new in Monsey. While some Chassidishe schools allow it, other Chassidishe schools allowed it until recently.
That's why you will find moms driving among the older parent body in Satmar, Pupa, Belz etc.

4everonadiet

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:09 pm

Chloe wrote:

They're just trying to win the competition... If the younger generation is just taking this sitting down then the school have done a fantastic job Wink

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:47 pm

One thing confuses me about the original story. She left her community and is no longer Satmar. She writes about that a lot. Given that, what’s the big deal about driving? Wouldn’t it be more compelling if this story was written by someone rebelling within the community? What’s the big deal about leaving and then learning to drive?

MagentaYenta

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 7:52 pm

amother wrote:

I suppose that if one were denied this choice and finally had it, the symbolism of the event/action would be a bit more nuanced. In the case of rebellion, well it's either suppressed or shunned.

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 8:00 pm

4everonadiet wrote:

They're just trying to win the competition... If the younger generation is just taking this sitting down then the school have done a fantastic job Wink

I know someone who teaches in a chassidishe h.s. and drives. they asked her not to park in the school's parking lot cuz it doesnt 'pos" for the students to see. ps wen they made a play & they needed to go shoppoing and stuff they asked this teascher to drive them!!! she was horrified and insulted. if driving is discouraged, then don't use me out when its good for oyou...

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 8:20 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I suppose that if one were denied this choice and finally had it, the symbolism of the event/action would be a bit more nuanced. In the case of rebellion, well it's either suppressed or shunned.

So maybe this story would be more interesting for people still in the communities.