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Father Asks School To Bar Unvaccinated Children for son
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 11:45 am
amother wrote:
Um do you put your faith in your limited brain? Who do you think you are? Talk about an inflated ego! You cannot even put your faith in Hashem and do normal things!!!!


As a moderator: This is an attack and will not be tolerated. Nothing to do with opinions on the subject at hand. I will edit or remove posts that speak to anyone in this manner.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 11:46 am
Scrabble123 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just could not help myself from getting involved when I saw this comment.
Do you know what science is by definition?


Honestly, as much as the post I responded to shocked me, I have to realize that amother was most likely not granted a proper intellectual and emotional education. I am not trying to poke fun at you, but a statement like "gravity is not science. it's nature." is something that almost no one can relate to or even begin to understand. I'm sorry that you were not taught proper information as a child and young adult, but now is the chance to learn about science and what it really is. You don't need to be embarrassed but you owe it to yourself to look into it.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 11:49 am
amother wrote:
Reread my post. I never said that pesayim was regarding the anti-vax. I did, however, predict that you would read too much into my post.

I only read it that way because you were trying to turn the opposition around.

But ok, if you didn't mean it in a negative sense, no harm done. I didn't edit, and wouldn't, unless it was written in a sarcastic mean tone to someone. It's all about the context.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 11:51 am
amother wrote:
For those of you that put your faith in science


Your faith is only put in Hashem, and you trust in what is considered acceptable, normal behaviors and practices in society within the realms of Torah. Remember that it is He who gave the scientists their knowledge and ability to create tools like vaccines and medicines.

Individuals must be aware of their own limitations; whether that be physical, emotional, mental, intellectual, etc. Part of being a healthy individual is doing what is perceived as healthy and true. It is appropriately to not "blindly trust" anything but the Torah, but believe that you understand more about science and nature than individuals who have studied it in depth and possess advanced degrees is absurd. Going along with what is considered "acceptable" within the realms of Torah of course is a sign of intelligence and trust. It's actually something that therapists encourage different individuals to do to overcome personality disorders, anxiety disorders, etc. (although of course each case is different). Claiming that you know better than the entire world is a grossly inflated ego and purely ignorant. It's laughing in the face of education, knowledge, and Hashem who gave us all of the knowledge we have in this world.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 11:54 am
amother wrote:
Um do you put your faith in your limited brain? Who do you think you are? Talk about an inflated ego! You cannot even put your faith in Hashem and do normal things!!!!

New amother here.
Please don't get started on the faith in Hashem thing. If you want to speak about how spirituality factors into the vaccine debate, then you're out of your element. We don't know what Hashem wants us to have faith in, other than Him. So don't come here saying "Do this or that and have faith."

People who don't vaccinate believe that G-d runs the world and that whether someone is meant to be sick is decided by Him. A vaccinated person can just as well catch the measles - if G-d wills it so. Exposing myself to potential harm, in the form of a vaccine, is not a valid form of hishtadlus to me. (Just like I wouldn't consider a dangerous job as hishtadlus for parnassah.)

I will iy"h not come back to respond to this thread as I'm sure you'll all have fun taking apart my post. But when you guys start mixing together medical, scientific, and risks vs. benefits analysis together with faith in Hashem and doing what's "normal" (who decides what normal is anyway?), I just had to pipe up with my view of that.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:00 pm
amother wrote:
People who don't vaccinate believe that G-d runs the world and that whether someone is meant to be sick is decided by Him. A vaccinated person can just as well catch the measles - if G-d wills it so. Exposing myself to potential harm, in the form of a vaccine, is not a valid form of hishtadlus to me. (Just like I wouldn't consider a dangerous job as hishtadlus for parnassah.)


When the smallpox vaccine was still in the trial phase, doctors were looking for test subjects to test its efficacy. Many prominent Rabonim came forward (there are teshuvos on this) that not only must you go if you are selected, but that Jews should volunteer to help stop this terrible disease (even though at that point they did not know the safety of the trials or how successful they would be). Every single human being is very thankful to those who conducted and participated in those trials which eventually resulted in the creation of a vaccine against smallpox and its elimination. Not taking a dangerous job may prevent you from that danger, but not taking a vaccine leaves you vulnerable to the disease which I do hope you and your children and all of Klal Yisroel never have to deal with.

I don't think that you understand the statistics involved in "risk of harm from a vaccine" v. "risk of harm from serious vaccine preventable diseases." Not to mention that fear is not a reason to do anything except speak to a therapist or run in the case of being chased by a bear. You have to use your intellect to observe facts and make informed, intelligent decisions.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:01 pm
There are halachas, as was mentioned, involving medical risks and medical opinions. Basically we are supposed to follow the prevailing medical opinions of the time, even though these are subject to change or even complete turn around. We are also supposed to use the top physicians in the field and consult other experts if a situation arises where there is a question about what course to take. That is how the person is supposed to follow the halacha of guarding one's health. Of course there are other things. Do we vaccinate, or not vaccinate, and then drink diet soda, or text and drive, or sit for hours on imamother? If so, regardless of what shots we have or have not had, we are not guarding our health.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:05 pm
southernbubby wrote:
or sit for hours on imamother? If so, regardless of what shots we have or have not had, we are not guarding our health.

cuz were raising our blood pressure, huh?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:12 pm
amother wrote:
cuz were raising our blood pressure, huh?


primarily BP, but we are also ruining our posture and not getting enough exercise
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I worry for my own first too but if we all put ourselves first and give nothing to society, then there is no society. For example, we have communities because society minded people built them. Schools and hospitals did not just fall from the sky. Someone cared enough to bring them into existence. They did not simply say that they wanted to simply care for themselves and to hell with everyone else. I can worry about my own, only because someone else also worried about my own.


Find me a hospital or school that is solely founded out of the goodness of someone's heart for the purposes of helping others. That school or hospital needs to be free and not taking a profit. If they are making money, the intentions might be fine, but they are profiting from it so the selfish intention is still there. Schools and hospitals are businesses.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:29 pm
amother wrote:
Actually gravity is not science. Its nature.


Hug shock

Are you one of the highly educated PhD level science anti vax brigade?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the plain ignorance that is being bred in our communities. Countdown to total implosion began one generation ago, we are now in phase 2, where we genuinely believe that lice come from dust, not from lice eggs or reproduction, despite the current evidence to the contrary.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:30 pm
amother wrote:
Find me a hospital or school that is solely founded out of the goodness of someone's heart for the purposes of helping others. That school or hospital needs to be free and not taking a profit. If they are making money, the intentions might be fine, but they are profiting from it so the selfish intention is still there. Schools and hospitals are businesses.


They may have turned into profit making businesses but when they were started they were non-profit. Look up the origin of any Jewish hospital that has been in existence for 100 years or more. Look up the history of your own neighborhood and find out what exists that was founded out of the good of people's hearts. Catholic hospitals were founded by nuns and priests, all of whom take vows of poverty and live their lives to work for the sick and the poor. There are such things, as selfless endeavors. There used to be Jewish orphanages. Did some selfish individual simply decide to open one up to get rich?
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:35 pm
amother wrote:
Find me a hospital or school that is solely founded out of the goodness of someone's heart for the purposes of helping others. That school or hospital needs to be free and not taking a profit. If they are making money, the intentions might be fine, but they are profiting from it so the selfish intention is still there. Schools and hospitals are businesses.


If you want anything to be successful, it must be for profit. Imagine a doctor doing everything from his heart alone: he would probably never stop and most definitely jeopardize the patients' care. Furthermore, he may eventually start cutting corners, even if it's the good of his heart because of the sheer need to reach out to more individuals. Sadly, he may even be turned off from all of this giving. School need to be for profit as well. It encourages them to put up with difficult students, learn new techniques, attack the best teachers, etc. etc. Ensuring that these "businesses" are for profit not only financially benefits those involved, but it helps ensure that those who need their services will receive the best available.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:37 pm
southernbubby wrote:
They may have turned into profit making businesses but when they were started they were non-profit. Look up the origin of any Jewish hospital that has been in existence for 100 years or more. Look up the history of your own neighborhood and find out what exists that was founded out of the good of people's hearts. Catholic hospitals were founded by nuns and priests, all of whom take vows of poverty and live their lives to work for the sick and the poor. There are such things, as selfless endeavors. There used to be Jewish orphanages. Did some selfish individual simply decide to open one up to get rich?


Most school ARE non-profits. Any SUNY. Any CUNY. Any State schools. Many many private schools.
Teaching hospitals are non-profits. The only for-profit hospital I can think of in New York right now is Lenox Hill.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:39 pm
princessleah wrote:
Most school ARE non-profits. Any SUNY. Any CUNY. Any State schools. Many many private schools.
Teaching hospitals are non-profits. The only for-profit hospital I can think of in New York right now is Lenox Hill.


Your point is valid, but if I understood amother correctly, she meant that those working are paid a salary.... Maybe I misunderstood here.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:40 pm
Haha realize there are a couple of amothers here talking anti vax. I wrote a couple of posts up there but I didn't write the one about gravity not being scientific. I did write the one suggesting that science can be flawed and not to trust it so blindly.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:43 pm
Good point scrabble but my point is that in order for our current day philosophy to exist that "I and mine come first" someone first had to make our life possible. Now that the school exists, I can send my child there and demand that he comes first. The generation that founded the school could not say that. The founding of the school depended on everyone sacrificing for the existence of the school. Those who do not vaccinate are somewhat safer because of the decades of people who have already been vaccinated; otherwise, they would be in danger just as was the generation who lost children due to diphtheria and whooping cough.

As far as hospitals, they were founded by charitable societies but doctors were not volunteers; they were paid. Jewish hospitals were founded because Jewish doctors could not get jobs or privileges in non-Jewish hospitals or train in non-Jewish medical schools. There was also no kosher food available in non-Jewish institutions. This has all changed but the infrastructure was build on sacrifice and selflessness.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:44 pm
princessleah wrote:
Most school ARE non-profits. Any SUNY. Any CUNY. Any State schools. Many many private schools.
Teaching hospitals are non-profits. The only for-profit hospital I can think of in New York right now is Lenox Hill.


I think that we are in agreement.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:47 pm
amother wrote:
Haha realize there are a couple of amothers here talking anti vax. I wrote a couple of posts up there but I didn't write the one about gravity not being scientific. I did write the one suggesting that science can be flawed and not to trust it so blindly.


why are you guys so anonymous? yes it does get confusing when 10 ladies all have the same red rose. are you ashamed of your opinion or you just want to argue with people but don't want to take accountability for it? I don't mean to be mean but this is not about something personal like your child's bowel movements or your intimate life.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:49 pm
I think the general public are failing to understand that science is not something that one puts "faith in".

Even if you don't personally have the knowledge or intelligence to understand different areas, the whole concept of science is that it does not require faith, it explains the world around us by describing it and finding explanations that fit, that are testable and validated and hence do not require faith to prove, the proof is out there for you to see and test for yourself if you so wish.

Science doesn't try to explain the why, just the how. So God is not excluded by our explicit knowledge of quantum theory, or Newtonian physics, or Mendelian genetics, He is the why behind the how.

This ridiculous notion of "Do you believe in God or Science?" simply demonstrates the profound ignorance and lack of understanding of what science and scientific enquiry is by its very definition.

Of course science changes, it is simply a reflection of our current understanding of the world around us, and is constantly being developed and changed by those researching in every area.

Science isn't "right" or "wrong", it is simply a collection of theoretical and practical evidence that describes our universe in the past, the present and the future, in many realms, from the animal/ human arena to the study of the planets to the study of subatomic particles.

Some theories are better proven than others, such as gravity on Earth, are almost certainly correct or "True".

Some that used to be widely believed are now considered to be almost certainly wrong, some that are currently held to be true will almost certainly be proven untrue in the future. This is the nature of scientific enquiry.


I honestly don't know if people are being deliberately disingenuous or are genuinely too blinkered to understand what are pretty simple concepts of defining what our entire post industrial society is based on.
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