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Doctors will not see patients with anti-vaccine views
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:20 pm
Barbara wrote:
And it's the right of doctors to refuse to offer optional medical advice to people who don't value their judgments.

So what are you complaining about?


My only reason for bringing up this story was in response to those who felt that allowing unvaccinated children into a practice puts the other children at risk.

That's not always the case. Sometimes it's just about a doctor wanting to impose his beliefs on all his patients. Which of course is his right. But let's call a spade a spade.
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greenhelm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:26 pm
amother wrote:
My only reason for bringing up this story was in response to those who felt that allowing unvaccinated children into a practice puts the other children at risk.

That's not always the case. Sometimes it's just about a doctor wanting to impose his beliefs on all his patients. Which of course is his right. But let's call a spade a spade.


Uh yeah, doctors want to impose their beliefs. I mean, they spent years studying to acquire those skills that many of us depend on. If you don't trust in their judgement, why seek them out in the first place?

And yes, doctors also don't want to expose other vulnerable patients to VPDs. There can be more than one reason to discourage non vaccinators to remain in a practice.
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eastsidemother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:30 pm
amother wrote:
Of course it's my right. May this country never reach the point where consent/refusal of medical treatments is no longer in the parent's/guardian's/patient's hands.


False. It is not your right. Not even a person's religious beliefs are sufficient to override the right of a child to be ALIVE when his or her parent's religious or personal or even health beliefs clash with accepted medical science as to treatment of life-threatening illness.

Hospital ethics boards can and do ask the court system to override parental medical decisions that are likely to lead to the foreseeable death of their child. The courts routinely order that such decisions are to be overridden.

Once your child turns 18, they can decide anything medically they want or do not want. For themselves.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:44 pm
To the title of the thread: Good.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: parents who don't vax their kids should be charged with criminal negligence.

I think that's all I can handle before my blood pressure skyrockets.
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eastsidemother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:46 pm
amother wrote:
That's not always the case. Sometimes it's just about a doctor wanting to impose his beliefs on all his patients. Which of course is his right. But let's call a spade a spade.


These aren't a doctor's "beliefs", as if a physician is somehow akin to my 8 year old child who still believes in fairy dust and monsters under the bed.

Medical practice is based on tested scientific principles, not belief.

One journey, perhaps, to a 3rd world country where children who are unvaccinated die daily would cure most people of their doubts. Or perhaps a walk through a cemetery one or two generations removed. Look at how many children were buried with their mothers before the age of 5. I don't know how some of those mothers survived the heartbreak.

Viruses and bacteria have a much more vested interest in a child's death or permanent disability than Bristol-Myers-Squibb. And they are much more indiscriminate. And ruthless.
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Think1st




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:53 pm
eastsidemother wrote:
These aren't a doctor's "beliefs", as if a physician is somehow akin to my 8 year old child who still believes in fairy dust and monsters under the bed.

Medical practice is based on tested scientific principles, not belief.

One journey, perhaps, to a 3rd world country where children who are unvaccinated die daily would cure most people of their doubts. Or perhaps a walk through a cemetery one or two generations removed. Look at how many children were buried with their mothers before the age of 5. I don't know how some of those mothers survived the heartbreak.

Viruses and bacteria have a much more vested interest in a child's death or permanent disability than Bristol-Myers-Squibb. And they are much more indiscriminate. And ruthless.


One walk through upper class schools with most kids UN-vaccinated & Asthma ADD & Autism unheard of should cure any MD of their flat earth religion
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 3:55 pm
The fear of being sued is a legitimate fear.

It's not a silly or unworthy or selfish fear.

It would be enough by itself.

It often is.

These realities exist; there is no use getting cross at people who want to protect themselves for real-world possible, not imaginary, bad events.

Everybody is entitled to their own dark fantasies. You have yours and they have theirs. Yours have some reality and so do theirs. Yes, some kids may not do well with vaccines. Yes, some people sue.

I have my own dark fantasies. Mine is that the dread childhood diseases maim and kill. They do.

We are all right.

But don't get annoyed at a doctor because you don't like his dark fantasies.

He doesn't like yours either. So there.

The point made up there that cherry-picking can get odd, is interesting. If you don't trust the vaccine doctrine, why would you trust any other doctrine emanating from the doctor? To do that is to say "I am also a doctor". They why would you want access to him as your doctor?

They should certainly be informed, and work collaboratively with their doctors, but at the end of that, he's the doctor. If you don't think he knows what he is talking about, go home.

I too, had to lie there, and accept the little black triangle coming down over my face, my poor, unprotected face, to be anesthetized. I decided to let them do it. I didn't have to. It's a free country. I could have stayed home. I would then have expected to be released from that doctor's care, formally and legally.

You can't have it both ways.

Think first, those upper class people are getting plenty sick. There are unfilled chairs in those upscale classrooms.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Think1st




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:03 pm
Barbara wrote:
Nope.

Any doctor who thinks that a child would be better off getting polio than getting the vaccine is a fool.

Any doctor who would rather see his patients get measles than being vaccinated is a fool.

It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with caring about patients.

1953. Iron lung ward



That's what doctors who encourage immunizations don't want to see.


http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/the_history_of_polio.pdf

At its peak, polio paralyzed and killed up to half a million people every year, before
Jonas Salk invented a vaccine in 1955.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

Polio reached a peak in the United States in 1952, with more than 21,000 paralytic cases. However, following introduction of effective vaccines, polio incidence declined rapidly. The last case of wild-virus polio acquired in the United States was in 1979, and global polio eradication may be achieved within the next decade.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil......olio/

So you are tying to convince me that the drop in polio cases in 1952 should be credited to the vaccine project of 1955 LOL LOL LOL


Last edited by Think1st on Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:07 pm
Yes. Just because nature has variations and rhythms, does not mean that the vaccine doesn't work.

Establishing what causes what, real causality, is very hard.

It has taken the best minds four hundred years to get some rigor into that process.
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eastsidemother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:09 pm
Think1st wrote:
One walk through upper class schools with most kids UN-vaccinated & Asthma ADD & Autism unheard of should cure any MD of their flat earth religion



100% the response I expected to see.

Zero statistics
Use of absolutist terms ("Most", "Unheard of")
Extrapolating the conclusion based on the zero statistics cited from a county in California that consists almost entirely of 1%ers to the entire child population of the U.S.

Like I said, in the end it doesn't matter. The statutory loopholes will be closed, significant pressure will be placed on California, and the 1%ers will find alternate ways to school their children. It just won't be in public school (psssst, the 1%ers by and large aren't using the public school system anyway). The rest will have to homeschool and get medical advice from their chiropractors or whomever else will tell them whatever they want to hear.
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greenhelm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 4:46 pm
eastsidemother wrote:
I wish I had known about all of that vaccination bonus money when my public health group went to Africa to vaccinate as many kids as possible. It never occurred to me that I could have been thinking of every kid as a dollar sign instead of, you know, a child with a better chance of not dying in childhood.

Think of all of the expensive gadgets I missed out on...


Sorry, I know this is kind of off-topic, but this is so interesting! You went to Africa yourself? I'd love to hear more about this!
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eastsidemother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 5:00 pm
greenhelm wrote:
Sorry, I know this is kind of off-topic, but this is so interesting! You went to Africa yourself? I'd love to hear more about this!


I've been to two different countries in Africa, Peru, Ecuador, and Panama with mobile vaccination clinics.

What do you want to know? Feel free to PM me.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 12:25 pm
amother wrote:
I am the Amother above who was tossed from the ped's office. The reason they tossed us came down to fear of law suits. They feared that either:

1. If one of our kids contracted a disease that we did not vaccinate for we could sue them for not being more firm in pushing us to do so (sounds stupid, but law suits are often stupid), OR
2. If another patient contracted a disease that they DID vaccinate for but then found out that they could have been exposed to non-vaxed patients in the waiting room and contracted the disease there they could sue the doctors (equally stupid, since it would be impossible to prove, but like I said about law suits...)

So it had nothing to do with fear for their safety. Male or female not relevant.

PS, they told us so. I am not guessing.


That doesn't negate the fact that you posed danger to other children in the waiting room. my ped has the same policy because he had an infant die from a VPD which was contracted in his waiting room from an unvaccinated child.
I am pregnant and not allowed to work with kids under 10 yrs of age because of no measles immunity. I don't work with kids that age but my gyn insisted that I stop working because irresponsible parents don't always inform school that they have this illness in their household.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 1:04 pm
amother wrote:
When my baby was 1 month old, I got back the results of his metabolic disorder screening and there was an abnormal result.

I didn't yet have a pediatrician due to insurance issues. I called one up and the first question they asked was if he'd had his Hep B shot.

I told them, "No, I'm not a carrier, no family members are carriers, and he's home with me all day."

They refused to see him.

Tell me how this is not utterly ridiculous.

What is he at risk of? What is he going to spread to other patients in the waiting room?


I don't see the logic. So you didn't have him vaxed even though you didn't have the result of the test yet?
And if he has an abnormal result, are you sure that vaccination interferes with it?

And if a doctor confirmed to you that it does interfere, then why don't you provide this info to the ped to have your child medically exempted?
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 2:47 pm
bookie wrote:
If there policy is that they don't accept unvaxed kids than that included all kids no matter what. Why should you be an exception?


It makes no sense to me. The reason for this policy is to protect infants and other immunocompromised people who have not yet received all shots. So her infant is in this risk group rather than someone who puts others in danger.
If they exclude infants like hers then the policy doesn't make sense. The kids who can not be vaccinated for medical reasons CANNOT BE VACCINATED. They shouldn't be excluded. Otherwise they will end up in the same waiting room with ant-vaxers by personal choice.

I also don't see that the fact that she didn't do hep b as an indication that she rejects all the shots.
The missing puzzle piece is the info whether her infant is really in danger due to his abnormal metabolic test.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 2:51 pm
eastsidemother wrote:
False. It is not your right. Not even a person's religious beliefs are sufficient to override the right of a child to be ALIVE when his or her parent's religious or personal or even health beliefs clash with accepted medical science as to treatment of life-threatening illness.

Hospital ethics boards can and do ask the court system to override parental medical decisions that are likely to lead to the foreseeable death of their child. The courts routinely order that such decisions are to be overridden.

Once your child turns 18, they can decide anything medically they want or do not want. For themselves.


This argument is used against Jews in the religious circumcision debate...
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 2:56 pm
I certainly wouldn't see anyone who accused all doctors of being pedophiles. :-(
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 2:57 pm
If the parents disagree with vaccines being useful or think they are toxic then they do think they do what is preserving life.

I think I heard of some docs that way, but it's not yet a big movement here so people don't yet react/are aware... more and more thought. My Goldilicious is not quite vaxed "normally" and I got a vax booklet by mail, very guilt inducing and all. LOL. Not sure if all get it.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 3:00 pm
eastsidemother wrote:
I've been to two different countries in Africa, Peru, Ecuador, and Panama with mobile vaccination clinics.

What do you want to know? Feel free to PM me.


Amazing. I can't imagine how many lives you have saved! Kol hakavod.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 3:10 pm
Think1st wrote:
One walk through upper class schools with most kids UN-vaccinated & Asthma ADD & Autism unheard of should cure any MD of their flat earth religion


Give me details of these amazing schools where no one has ever been vaccinated and not a single kid has any of these diseases and I will review the data. And if you're right, then I will definitely consider highlighting it to the public health team who will consider where and how this miraculous school achieves it, without declining admission to anyone on health grounds.

A whole community without sickness, that would be great to investigate.

BTW, it isn't the doctors with a flat earth religion, that would be a totally different group of science deniers. Maybe that is where you are confused. You don't know how to identify a doctor, so you ask around if someone believes in the flat earth theory, and if they do, you call them a doctor. Oh dearie me. So much to learn. Maybe you should go to med school yourself so you can discover all that science stuff?
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