And the vax discussion continues - read and discuss

abby1776

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 1:58 pm

Read and discuss
http://www.kveller.com/why-eve.....kids/

Since the news of the recent Disneyland measles outbreak and the subsequent chatter on Facebook began, I discovered I have at least four Facebook friends (and likely a few more) with healthy, non-immunocompromised, vaccine-aged children who have decided, for non-medical reasons, to not vaccinate.

For some of these friends and acquaintances, the news was not surprising considering their views on other issues. With one friend in particular, though, it felt like a betrayal, one that I just can’t get past. Here this person was, in my community, in my home, and I never knew how they felt and what steps they were taking to separate themselves from the herd. I spent some time thinking and talking about it with another friend and realized one of the major reasons it bothered me so much is because this family is Jewish.

I naively assumed Jews (outside of the ultra-Orthodox) always vaccinate for lots of reasons–we are a religion that values life after all. Many of us are doctors and there is no question in the medical community that vaccinating is the right choice for healthy children and in the best interest of everyone’s public health. We are also known to have champion hypochondriacs among us (certain “Jewish mother” stereotypes come to mind) who won’t leave much to chance if there is the promise of a cure or a preventative measure for just about anything.

But mostly I assumed Jewish parents vaccinated because we have, more than many other groups of people, a deep sense of community within us. We are the people who don’t let mourners mourn alone. We don’t even let dead bodies rest in solitude until after they are buried. The first Jews to come to America in the late 19th century set up the Hebrew Free Loan Society which still operates today. Our food banks feed our neighbors, Jewish or not. For a Jew, being communal is not an option, it’s an obligation. We can’t even have a minyan unless 10 of us are there. We are a group of people who Show Up.

I see childhood immunizations through this same communal lens: Just as I pay my taxes for the good of the community, save water during a drought, or don’t get behind the wheel if I’m drunk, I vaccinate my kids not just to protect them but to cover yours too. I always assumed my fellow Jews were naturally inclined to do the same for me. And we’re not just doing it for each other either, we are doing it for those who can’t. I’m doing it for my relative who is immunosuppressed. And for my neighbor’s newborn twins. And for the stranger at Target on her third round of chemo.

I get so frustrated when parents say, “This is a personal decision we are making for our family.” It’s not. Unlike the epic debates about co-sleeping vs. sleep training or formula vs. breastmilk, this is one of the only parenting decisions that actually effects everybody. It is not a personal decision, it is a public health decision, and I don’t think we can be reminded of that enough. Your choice to take the risk that your kid can ride out a case of the measles unscathed means you are making that choice for dozens of other people your child comes in contact with. Unless you move into a cave or to a private island, there is no escaping community; we are all in this together.

I used to avoid debates about the merits of vaccinating. Usually these arguments aren’t a fair fight anyway. It’s impossible to argue with the research from countless scientific studies and medical professionals who are unequivocally pro-vaccine for healthy children (although I am sure people will try to do so in the comments section below anyway). These discussions always end up being about other things like our freedom to make personal decisions or about the distrust of government or pharmaceutical companies, or about people’s opinions and feelings towards actual facts.

Frankly, before I knew that people close to me felt this way, it was easy enough to write off those who don’t vaccinate as “crazies.” But now that I know what I know, I can’t say nothing anymore, and I’m tired of accommodating people who are offended by the views of the entire medical community. There is a place where personal freedom ends and public safety for the entire population begins.

I don’t like to judge other people’s parenting decisions but when it comes to vaccines, I have no choice. Just as I would speak up if someone in my community posted a homophobic rant or used a racist slur, I have started to speak up about this among my Jewish friends and now to the world at large. As far as I am concerned, the anti-vax position is indefensible. If you’re a Jew with no medical reason to not vaccinate your children, you are forgetting how connected we all are to one another, and that it’s our responsibility to consider the community when we consider ourselves.

Just as we are obligated to celebrate in each other’s joys, we are commanded to care for and protect each other, too. This isn’t just about you.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:01 pm

Point of information: Jews were here before the revolutionary war. Remember Hyman Solomon?

imaima

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:04 pm

I can relate to feeling astounded when I find out that a friend does not vaccinate.

I was also astonished to see how many of such people are among orthodox people.

chatouli

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:05 pm

I agree with you. I lost a friendship over this a couple years ago. It's pretty sickening that we have to deal with this mindset.

GreenEyes26

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:10 pm

In certain isolated, close-minded, and uneducated circles (I'm going to say "uneducated" instead of "ignorant") it's almost an epidemic. They just don't know any better.

If I found out a friend didn't vaccinate, she would no longer be my friend. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet. I hope it never well. I try to surround myself with smart, educated, and mentally well people.

Iymnok

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:14 pm

What bothers me about anti-vaxers id's the more they talk the more ignorant they sound. Bringing that old autism study on 12 kids, articles they didn't read that prove them wrong anyways.
Illness is passed most commonly I crowded environments like classrooms and should. I actually asked daas Torah, about this, he said that both sides have their risks, but we have to do normal hishtadlus and be responsible.

I liked this piece.

ally

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:27 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

I actually find it fascinating that the anti-vax movement, which is founded on distrust of medical authority and the assumption that the "lay person" can come to equally (more) educated decisions than medical practitioners, has obtained such a stronghold in societies where questioning a rabbi (and by a woman!!!!) is a total taboo.
I wonder if it is some type of outlet for natural skepticism. I think this disconnect would make a fascinating study (FS? just kidding).

youngishbear

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:36 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

This was uncalled for, despite parts of it being true. The anti-vax movement originated or at least is popular in highly educated professional communities. In California, as an example, though I need to look up exactly where.

Dovi'smom

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 2:59 pm

ally wrote:

I do think there's an element of feeling superior about going against the grain, thereby proving to have enough brains and wits to think independently.

imaima

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 3:01 pm

youngishbear wrote:

You can call it selectively-educated.

Even educated people can have wrong judgements.

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 3:12 pm

imaima wrote:

You can call it selectively-educated.

Even educated people can have wrong judgements.

could it even be called a cult following?

mirror

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 3:14 pm

I firmly believe the outcome would have been very different if Polio was the contagious disease of Disneyland. Measles is rather lame in comparison.

GreenEyes26

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 3:16 pm

youngishbear wrote:

I only mentioned the prevalence in certain orthodox communities because the OP specifically mentioned her shock at Jewish anti-vaxers.

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 3:16 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

I firmly believe the outcome would have been very different if Polio was the contagious disease of Disneyland. Measles is rather lame in comparison.

true but don't you think that the anti-vaxers would find a way to say that contracting polio prevented brain tumors?

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:20 pm

Thank you for bashing away as that made me do more research and in turn made my anti vax decision stronger.

Additionaly, Reading the vax threads made me realize how its possible for the entire world to believe the mainstream media and be biased against Israel.
If one just reads some news, sees the graphic horrifying pictures, and skims through the comments on social media then, yes, Israel is guilty of war crime.

Same way you blindly trust your doctor and media statements about vaccination vs anti vaccination results, your typical Joe blindly trusts the NY Times as it portray Israel.

No, I don't trust the FDA.

Now bash away.

OOTforlife

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:42 pm

I vaccinate my child for my child. If I thought the vaccine would hurt my child, I don't think I would vaccinate simply to benefit other children unless it was a truly cosmic level of disparity between the degree of hurt. I myself might very well be willing to accept some damage to my own health for the community's benefit. But I'd be unlikely to make such a decision for my child. And I'm not sure it would be fair to make such a decision for a child.

That being said, I think my child is more likely to benefit from being vaccinated than to be hurt by it. So I vaccinate.

Barbara

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

Ah, yes. You're the only one who reads and does research. Those of us who have concluded that diseases such as polio, measles and whooping cough pose serious dangers are being misled by the FDA. People like you, well, you know better. I mean, sure, 17 people die of measles every HOUR. But its not really a dangerous disease, and anyone who thinks it is must be stupid.

Those statistics that demonstrate the efficacy of vaccinations, in terms of demonstrated immunity and in terms of decrease in disease incidence? Pure fantasy. Each disease as to which there is an immunization magically disappeared at the time that the vaccine was introduced.

I now understand. Completely. I should not trust peer-reviewed studies. The real truth lies in small-scale studies with bad methodology, studies that cannot be replicated.

Anything paid for by "Big Pharma" is a lie. Anything financed by plaintiff's attorneys looking to sue "Big Pharma" is always accurate.

Education and studies are irrelevant. We are all equal.

And most of all, the person I should trust is someone who doesn't have the kahunas to post in her nyn -- a FAKE name -- on the internet. Dozens of years of studies be damned. YOU are the owner of all knowledge.

Come back to me after your kid gets measles or whooping cough, and is one of the very significant percentage of kids who wind up in the hospital. Then tell me how innocuous it is.

Frumdoc

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:49 pm

amother wrote:

No bashing, but I find it really sad that you have read and understood the statistical models that public health decisions including vaccination are based on, that you understand the relative and absolute risk of the potential ill effects of the disease, the vaccine and the community effects of each, and yet still don't understand the benefits of vaccination against preventable diseases that kill thousands worldwide.

And I would like to see your evidence that the FDA is deliberately harming people, and that doctors are not trained in evaluation of complex public health statistical modelling and interpretation of medical evidence, because every med school I have contacted has a module on exactly these learning points. And exams.

And where is the evidence that doctors are being bribed or paid off by drug companies, because if you read or look at all medical conferences and all publications including reading basic medical journeals such as the NEJM or JAMA, it is obligatory for all researchers and publishers to write their potential conflicts of interest so they can be evaluated along with their work. That is called transparency. Doctors who don't declare conflicts of interest or financial backing are stripped of their qualifications and their work is revoked.

In fact, this is what happened to Andrew Wakefield, the infamous MMR man, who didn't declare his major financial interest in implicating the MMR vaccine in autism, which was his major sharehold in the only company in the UK that was licenced to give single dose measles, mumps and rubella vaccinations. Which was his motivation for his "study".

If someone presents a scientific and coherent argument against vaccination (and there are such arguments to be made) then we have a discussion. But all there is on here is nonsense about evil doctors, evil drug companies, accusations of brainwashing and muttering about trust and faith and no good logical scientific argument at all.

Trust and faith, if you wish to do your own research, have nothing to do with the decision to vaccinate or enter into any medical treatment. Objective statistical evidence that is well understood is the only way to consider this decision.

Make those arguments, and no one on here has ever expressed the pretty straightforward statistical argument that I would consider valid enough to debate, then I would say we have a conversation or a starting point.

But the fallacies and nonsense I have seen spouted by so many on imamother as medical truth is so ridiculous that there is nowhere to start the conversation, we are on different orbits and there is nothing in terms of a shared cognitive reality that we can work from.

Barbara

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:56 pm

Wakefield didn't have an interest in separating out MMR.

He was hired and financed by attorneys who wanted to sue the makers of MMR (Big Pharma). Some of the 12 patients in the study were already involved in liability litigation against vaccine firms.

Frumdoc

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 4:56 pm

Small question.

So those who consider vaccination to be too high a risk to subject their children to in their first world countries, would they make the same decision if they lived in a refugee camp in Syria or Jordan with poor health services and a possible 50% death rate from vaccine preventable diseases?

Or in a resource poor country in South America?

If there was a smallpox outbreak in NY, with a mortality risk of 30 to 35%, would you vaccinate?

I'm just trying too get a feel for how many people really understand the statistical model.