And the vax discussion continues - read and discuss

Think1st

Sat, Feb 07 2015, 6:44 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

The only thing I can conclude from this imamother survey (or thread) is that the most vocal anti vaccination opponent has no understanding of the science behind vaccinations or medical studies and is unable to follow or respond to rational discussion or argument.

A more educated spokesperson may be more effective in such debates.

Just the opposite, the typical no-vaxer has been proven to be college graduate high income, 2 parent home

http://therefusers.com/refuser.....78NiY

http://preventdisease.com/news.....shtml

http://www.vaccineriskawarenes.....inate

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01.....?_r=0

The county’s vaccination rate for kindergartners is about 90 percent, a little lower than the statewide rate, 90.4 percent. But rates in some pockets, especially in the wealthier southern half, are sharply lower.

http://www.healthyaeon.com/201......html

Another finding published in the journal PLoS Medicine, showed that parents with more education were less likely to let their daughters get HPV shots. It also adds to a growing body of evidence that suggests vaccination efforts are being rightfully eroded not by people who are under-educated, but by upper-middle class folks with degrees.

Now you have proven yourself time and again, to deliberately fabricate, or have no idea what you are talking about !

QUACK QUACK QUACK

Last edited by Think1st on Sat, Feb 07 2015, 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

out-of-towner

Sat, Feb 07 2015, 10:28 pm

I'm surprised that no one pointed this out yet: autism is a spectrum, and it is defined by the DSM. The DSM is constantly changing. For example, earlier versions of it had homosexuality listed as a disorder. Now it is not considered to be one.

So all of you who are claiming that vaccines cause autism, what symptoms define autism? Did you know that the latest version of the DSM actually narrowed the definition, making some people who previously were considered to be on the spectrum no longer eligible for services? There are plenty of high functioning autism people out there, who can even get married and lead normal lives.

Just a tbought.

gootl

Sat, Feb 07 2015, 10:44 pm

I just want to know what percentage of anti-vac have studied microbiology. thats all. because I have. yes, most people survived many of the diseases vaccinations prevent but some dont. meningitis is fatal. polio can be fatal. rubella-especially during pregnancy-can be fatal. no I dont really want my kids to be vaccinated by chicken pox but my doctor doesnt care what I think-its not worth making a fuss. its the only vaccine I dont understand. but keep in mind-years ago we lost toddlers and young children. to disease. now they dont die because their immune systems are stronger. I will take a day or two of low fever if it means my kid's immune system can fight better.

Frumdoc

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 10:21 am

Think1st wrote:

Sweetie, please show me where I personally have deliberately fabricated, or have no idea what I am talking about.

The you I was addressing earlier, is you, think1st, not some other educated and knowledgeable anti vaccinator. For them, I have time for, an academic discussion and debate. I am all for that, in fact, it is what I have been trying to encourage you to do, to educate yourself so we can engage in a logical and reasonable discussion of the various aspects, both risk ans benefit, of the issues.

Sadly, you have not even understood my simple words. Perhaps you aren't reading them. Maybe you can take this thread to someone who might be more proficient at reading English and they can explain it to you.

Meanwhile, I am not sure why you are "quacking" in multiple colors.

Are you a duck? Or practicing for Purim?

Or is this your considered, deliberated and most intelligent response to an academic debate?

I am fascinated to know.

Meanwhile, please list the quotes that you consider me, personally, to have lied or "have no idea what I am talking about", and reference the threads. I am happy to respond to specific accusations, but these must be pointed out, as I am not aware of ever having deliberately lied or spoken in ignorance on imamother.

I hope you're not making the mistake of confusing me as an individual with "the medical institution", as I would never be arrogant enough to claim to speak for anyone other than myself when posting, certainly not the medical world as a whole, let alone the American medical institutions about which I have limited knowledge.

amother

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 11:37 am

out-of-towner wrote:

Exactly what you say they keep redefining the diseases so they can 'prove' that its getting less. The individuals who don't qualify for services because they are now no longer on the spectrum can maybe get married but will be in dire need of the services to actually function properly in society. But they will no longer get it and the families will be liable. polio has been redefined as meningitis in some forms of the disease. If you look it up they describe it as polio like symptoms (its not polio! No it isn't! 😜) and sometimes unfortunately the adverse reaction is so severe but the 'proffecionals' say its not a reaction and shut us up. (or at least try to for those of you that fall for it,it worked).
Every study is done by correlation =causation they just use a group of subjects and 'follow' it. They record the results 'asked' for and sum it up. They sometimes start with a minimal number of subjects and then increase to get a bigger picture. Thing is they ask the subjects to record only what they want to hear,and see. Often subjects are thrown off the study data because they weren't getting 'the right results' from them. And sometimes studies are cut short to keep 'the right results' perfect. And sometimes the end results are altered to 'get the right results'.
I know lots of you don't like to hear it but this is the case very often.
Besides there are so many people getting the vaccines so many people claiming they have had bad reactions why don't they continue the studies for longer than a couple of days or weeks. Why don't they take all those who don't vaccinate and study the difference with those that do vaccinate. They can get a good study going. The people who dong vaccinate would gladly join such a study if done in an Honest manner. Follow them for a couple of years and see how their development is... if such a study was ever done (Afaik it wasn't )it is buried somewhere where they don't want it to be seen by the public.
For 10 years they have been hidingthe fact that their study shows that autism is a cause of vaccines but they altered the results of that study. And continue to promote it without doing a change. Dr.Thomson says how guilty he feels about it but what do the others who worked ont that staudy say 'nothing' besides for promoting their garbabge and lies.
Go stick your head in the sand no problem I'm not telling you not to vaccinate but let 'us' do what we feel is best for our kids our family.
and please don't come with 'herd immunity ' were not a herd of cows. We're people who are trying our best to stay that way.

amother

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 11:56 am

amother wrote:

Where is your proof???? Oh yah the internet.... There are many imamothers involved in research and science and vaccine development and not 1 of them says anything like you said. I guess they are paid to lie on imamother and lie about deleting data. You can go on trying to stay like a person who hopefully avoids polio and stay away from my baby please.

mille

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

Every study is done by correlation =causation they just use a group of subjects and 'follow' it. They record the results 'asked' for and sum it up. They sometimes start with a minimal number of subjects and then increase to get a bigger picture. Thing is they ask the subjects to record only what they want to hear,and see. Often subjects are thrown off the study data because they weren't getting 'the right results' from them. And sometimes studies are cut short to keep 'the right results' perfect. And sometimes the end results are altered to 'get the right results'.
I know lots of you don't like to hear it but this is the case very often.

What is your source for this? Again, as someone who recruits participants for scientific studies, no, this is not the case at all. You have been horribly misinformed. Even if someone fudged the numbers or tried to stack the odds in the favor of their hypothesis, and EVEN IF this study ended up getting published despite poor methods (like a certain beloved ex-doctor...), the results would never be able to be replicated. And the validity of the first study would fall apart very, very quickly. Other scientists would see such a novel conclusion and attempt to replicate, only to find results that differ so wildly that it cannot be attributed to chance.

I really can't overemphasize how WRONG you are.

Correlation is NOT causation, and researchers know this better than anyone.

Think1st

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 12:33 pm

gootl wrote:

I just want to know what percentage of anti-vac have studied microbiology. thats all. because I have. yes, most people survived many of the diseases vaccinations prevent but some dont. meningitis is fatal. polio can be fatal. (1)rubella-especially during pregnancy-can be fatal. no I dont really want my kids to be vaccinated by chicken pox but (2)my doctor doesnt care what I think-its not worth making a fuss. its the only vaccine I dont understand. but keep in mind-(3)years ago we lost toddlers and young children. to disease. now they dont die because their immune systems are stronger. I will take a day or two of low fever if it means my kid's immune system can fight better.

(1)That's why the best way to avoid that is by contract it as a kid ( hopefully not pregnant then )

(2) Why on earth would someone use a Doc who doesn't care

(3)How many kids do you know died from cervical cancer they injecting 9 year old BOYS

(4)Mumps may protect against ovarian cancer,& who knows what else, why are GIRLS geting mumps vax

http://www.whale.to/a/mumps_protects.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....1028/

Last edited by Think1st on Sun, Feb 08 2015, 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

out-of-towner

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 1:08 pm

amother wrote:

Sweetie, I highly doubt that the DSM is redefining the definition of autism to prove that vaccines don't cause them. Again, the study that Wakefield did was discredited years ago. It was false, HE falsified data.

And doing research is not easy and very specific. You have to record everything. If you add subjects to the study, you must say so specifically. And ALL Dara is recorded. If pharmaceutical companies sponsor the funding, it would be stated and would be considered a bias.

Do you really think research works to skew the data? Have you ever really studied reaserch? I have studied college and graduate level reaserch for years. It is not easy to skew data, unless you totally make it up, as Wakefield did.

(And BTW, Im not in the medical field, but in the social services field where reaserch is also very important.)

Think1st

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

Forget about the vaccination debate. Your post is cruel and disrespectful. I stopped responding to your posts months ago when you personally attacked both myself and my mother a"h. I am not sure why you are still allowed on this thread. I am proud that I work to decrease childhood illness through vaccination despite what you think of me and others that are in this solely for the sake of children.

If you feel I have personally attacked you or anyone else , here is my public apology. You deserve the benefit of the you probably mean well,however you are unfortunately misguided. Do some independant homwework you willsee , that vaccines are the major contributor to most problems we have. including the explosion of ADD, Asthma & Allergies, Crhon's Colitis & Cancer. Ask any parent, school teacher or healthcare provider , to blank out the name but show the the file of the vaxed VS unvaxed kids they deal with daily

Frumdoc

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 3:07 pm

Think1st wrote:

To frumdoc

I apologize for going over the top, However you claim I am uneducated , when you apear unable to respond to simple questions , such as

1. what is the % ADD Asthma Allergies amongst your vexed patients VS the unvaxed. I have offed many Md's to compensate them for review of this type of info, other than fear of opening a can worms why are they refusing my $

I think you are hilarious.

I have now given up trying to start you on a path to self education, as your posts demonstrate a lack of education in critical appraisal of scientific papers. This is nothing to be ashamed of, but if you wish to pursue your mission to understand the medical practice of vaccination, or the use of insulin in diabetes, for example, some education is of value.

I would call myself uneducated in certain areas, such as the political history of Central and Eastern Europe during the middle ages, or the development of the Catholic Church. I have a superficial awareness of the basic facts, but no more. But I would not go online to persuade people that my ignorant view is the right one without doing an awful lot more self education.

I have told you before about the rate of vaccinated children in my practice, you obviously missed that, unsurprisingly, as you clearly have never actually read through or understood anything I've posted.

So three points:

1. Please identify where I personally have lied on here (as you claim)

2. Please identify where I have posted something that is absolutely wrong, in ignorance.

3. I work in Intensive Care and General Adult Hospital Medicine. Therefore, I don't have children in my practice, neither do I have a practice of patients to count their vaccination rate, as I deal with acutely ill patients who go through my care for a short time - think of an ER doctor. So I can't answer your questions, I have no practice, I have no patients of my own and those I see and look after for a few days are elderly.

In fact, none of my elderly European patients I see had the vaccination schedule of current US standards, most lived through WW2 and many have asthma, allergies, autoimmune diesases, arthritis, cancers of all types; some have old polio, many have had siblings die in childhood from all sorts of causes, including measles, mumps, TB, meningitis, as well as pertussis. Some have congenital rubella. Many have dementia, and I don't evaluate adults for ADD, at the age of 80 it is pretty irrelevant. Some certainly have autistic spectrum disorders, although they were labelled as "learning disabilities" as the term autism didn't come into fashion until these people were adults.

So, many old people, no vaccines, lots of asthma, allergies, cancer, autoimmune diseases.

But my patient profile is not a study and you can't intepret anything from it.

As I keep explaining.

I don't know how your brain will interpret that, but I am sure you will be able to twist it round into some fatuous insult, such as "correlation and causation are names of roads".

I wonder if I might share some of your posts as teaching examples in how not to understand data, with your permission, of course?

Last edited by Frumdoc on Sun, Feb 08 2015, 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 3:09 pm

Think1st wrote:

I see NO and I repeat NO difference in my own vax vs unvax children. My friend stopped vaxing her kids due to medical conditions and her only fully unvaxed child has ADHD. I do disagree with your statement.

amother

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 4:03 pm

Btw for all of you uninformed pro vaxers, Dr Wakefield was the first to speak up about the relation of vaccine . Vs. Autism. He wrote a paper with his findings asking for more research to be done based on that. He was debunked and his license was taken away, seemsike they were too afraid to face the truth maybe?
Another thing the study that was falsified and brought to our awareness only this spring/summer by whistleblower Dr. Thompson was sponsored by the pharmaceuticals and one of the lead professors Dr Boyle (sp?) Was the one who worked with him on the final paper and altered the results.
Go read a bit look up for the original debunked paper of Dr.Wakefield on the way. I found it, so can you. And the one about the whistleblower was all out in the news this past summer but quieted down fast as too still get the publics attention to vaccinate regardless.
Its ok that you rely on your Dr more than anything. But don't expect everyone else to. I never did and never will. I trust my Dr to help diagnose, I believe that hashem sends a Dr as a shaliach and that He sends the Malach Refoel to heal the Dr is only the pawn.

amother

Sun, Feb 08 2015, 4:12 pm

amother wrote:

So the malach refoel will heal you from any vaccine related injury and if the malach will heal you, why do u need a dr. To diagnose you. Malachim dont need diagnoses.