Where to go?! So overwhelmed

amother

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 12:23 am

Our current location has many good points to it but for various reasons we MUST move. But there are so many factors involved that we can't figure out where to, and this discussion has been going around and around in circles for literally years and the need to move is just more and more desperate! I feel like it's a disservice to my whole family that we haven't moved yet, but here we are.

Current (within NY 5 boros) - The Good:
I have a job I like that pays well and is an easy commute, with many perks such as a certain degree of flexibility and independence.
Have helpful family nearby, e.g. can drop the kids off if I just need an afternoon off to catch up on work or such or they will come over often if I need a sitter (which we don't do very often but when we do it's great to have someone who is not only free but trusted and familiar).
Have good school for our children (one of whom has mild special needs, I am hopeful but not certain if they will be the right fit for her in the long run as it's still very early on), who already accepted us with a generous tuition discount.
Community is pretty much as good as I could hope for - I have been a little slow to get into it but I do know a lot of people by now and I like that the community is very mixed, open, and easygoing - there's no one "type" or "look" or level of frumkeit or whatever. And it's basically one big community, there are different shuls and things but events pull everyone together.
Also, it is near a lot of things, there is nearby Jewish shopping and it's very urban so anything you need (shopping, medical, etc) is nearby and easy to get to.
DH is currently finishing a BS and applying to MS programs and he has many options to apply to here.
The Bad:
Our apartment here is really awful, I won't even go into detail but we need out. However any upgrade in the immediate area would be prohibitively expensive. We are already barely making ends meet while paying for our hole in the wall, even the cheapest upgrade would approximately double our rent basically resulting in close to 100% of our income going straight to rent. So very not feasible, and raising our income is not much of an option either - we have made some attempts but with DH in school and me balancing work and family which I don't do all that well, it is pretty clear that anything we do is not going to get us close to a local decent apartment. There are a couple of other reasons for wanting to move that are more personal and I don't wish to share, but that alone is enough, and when you add the personal reasons it gets very very compelling indeed.

Option A - Move nearby
Rent considerably less but still very expensive compared to more distant options.
No nearby communities seem to have the same "flavor" as our current one, we would be stuck settling for someplace we may not feel as comfortable in terms of fitting in. or maybe we could fit in. It's hard to say but seems unlikely in the more affordable places.
Unsure if we could get into schools that would be a good fit for both our hashkafa and our child's needs, but would be able to commute to our current school. However, that would add that commute for little kids which is not an idea I love. In one possible area which I'm not sure yet I could find housing, there is a school that might be good, but also might be very expensive and don't know if they would be helpful as our current school is.
I would either have a very long commute to my job, or would have to look for a new one which might not be as good. Same for DH and school. I already find life in general, managing all I need to fit into each day, super stressful, so I don't know how people cope with the same life demands and an extra long commute! I know others do it, maybe I'm just untalented, but I don't see it working for me. I value my family time too much. And if I have another baby (which is something I hope for) that means either shlepping a baby around or leaving them more hours with a sitter. Ugh.
The costs in both money, time, and convenience (can you say cleaning lady?) of a longer commute (or less desireable job) and lack of help might very well outweigh the lower housing cost. Or it might break even just about, but with the added stress of relocating and commuting or being in a less-preferred type of community. (There are a couple of places I could think of that are not too far and have nice communities that might be our type, but those are already too far to commute at least for me and little kids so that adds stress in the job-change area while still being much less of a monetary savings than farther out of town)

Option C - Move "out of town"
Much cheaper housing in many areas, but also no idea if I could get a job like my current one (in terms of pay even in proportion to living expenses, and the perks such as schedule flexibility, good environment, part time hours, low stress level, etc) if I am even lucky enough to get a job at all, which is not such a long shot but still you never know.
I hear tuition and kosher food is more expensive out of town.
We are likely to find a community that is a good match like the one we are in now.
But no idea if we can find a community, housing, job, AND school that meets our needs (including child with challenges) AND school for DH all in the same place.
Far from family. We have no family anywhere in OOT USA.
SO many unknowns and variables that it makes my head spin, MAYBE all could be worked out but too many chances - balance out finding job, school for kids, school for DH, community, housing, all - too many big question marks! And the business of starting over someplace unfamiliar to me scares me silly.

Option D - Make Aliyah
So it may sound crazy if I said that moving OOT seems like too much for me, but living in Israel has always been a kind of ideal to me. Practically speaking it is just as scary and my job prospects would be much much harder, to boot. But I'm wondering if the advantages of living in Israel perhaps justify the risks more than OOT does - though the risks/difficulties are more, too so it's so hard to weigh!
Pretty sure we could find appropriate community and school, though it might not be simple. From what I've heard from others, Israel has great schooling options for kids with special needs like mine, more so than random places in the US though good schools do exist in some places.
If we ever want to try making Aliyah, now would be the best time because our kids are still young. it will probably only get harder after this.
I have some family in Israel, but that would probably be about equivalent to OOT because I doubt we could afford to live near them.
There are aliyah benefits to help with the moving/setup expenses.
There are good schooling options for DH, plus part of aliyah package is that schooling is free, though it may be more difficult for him to acclimate to school in Hebrew. His Hebrew is what you might call yeshivish - great for learning Jewish books, not sure about interacting with Israeli academics.
My Hebrew is really not great and I'm not great at learning languages either. I'm a little intimidated, though if everything else is a go then it's something I'm willing to put up with.
I have concerns about raising kids in a language and culture I'm not familiar with, though. I've heard positive outcomes from others but I worry because I am so bad at the new language/culture thing.
Big big financial concerns - I have financial concerns wherever we go (locally too expensive, out of town job maybe not good enough, etc) but here it seems even more like jumping off a cliff. We could use some savings and maybe take out loans to help us through the beginning until we get jobs set up (for DH this could take a few years due to schooling, for me I guess it depends what I find...) but I'd really rather not do that much if at all. And here even if there might not BE great jobs in any given location, at least I have qualifications. In Israel I'm not as qualified, and even if I got qualified first of all that would take time and a lot of doing, and even then I still feel like I'd be at a bit of a disadvantage as an immigrant with poor Hebrew. A little of this and a little of that I could do, but I don't know about any steady stream of income.
But it seems that wherever we go is going to have to be somewhat a leap of faith, so fi you're taking a leap of faith aren't you better off leaping to the holy land?
I guess my heart and soul are pulling a little in this direction but in some ways it is SO much less practical/more daunting in terms of the magnitude of the move and adjustment that it seems like a very very crazy idea.

ANyway all this stuff is so BIG and with so many variables that we are just frozen into indecision. We can't think of anyone to ask, the question is just too difficult. We don't have the kind of guiding rebbe at this point who we would trust to point us in the right direction (we are not chasidish at all and do not follow that kind of rebbe, but the person we did at one point look to for guidance is now incapacitated and we have not developed a replacement relationship yet...) I just don't know what to do and meanwhile we are in a VERY crummy situation that not taking steps to get out of it causes us tremendous stress all the time.

Sorry for such a long post. I just needed to get it out and maybe fish for ideas...

imasinger

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 6:52 am

Can your DH work part time while going for his MS? It sounds like you really, really would prefer to find a way to stay where you are.

Keep in mind that moving costs money. None of your options are going to happen free of charge.

Is there any way for you to bring in additional income? Any other expenses you could cut?

Mrs Bissli

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 7:53 am

A couple of questions that may make it easier for us to give feedback:

Can you move out of 5 boroughs but still within commuting distance--say NJ?
How old are the children?

And where is Option B?

Raisin

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 8:26 am

Israel is a much smaller country so visiting family for shabbos or yom tov shouldn't be too big of a deal. Not like L.A. to NY.

imaima

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 9:04 am

How much longer is your dh going to school? What are his job perspectives? Transferring in another place may mean a setback.
Can your family help you financially? Maybe if they find out that you are on the verge of moving, they will help you figure something out in terms of rent?
I really think you should try as much as possible to stay where you are at least till your dh is done with school and is open to job possibilities? If it is a year or two, maybe you could wait with having another baby till he is done.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 9:06 am

I think the most important thing now is making sure your child with special needs has an appropriate school, and it's much harder to find out of town. It does depend on what the needs are (e.g. Jewels in Baltimore is good for younger children, and if yours would be able to be mainstreamed in the not too distant future, it may suffice http://jewelsschool.org/ but it's not for everyone....NY really has the best options in terms of schooling for special needs).

Look to see if there are schools anywhere else that would even be an option, and then check job market, MS programs, etc
If you can't find any, you need to find a way to stay put. I don't think I would add a commute to your workload as you are overwhelmed already. I like the idea of your husband finding some way to make money while getting his MS (easier said than done, though).

If he can do that, just enough so you can survive the next couple of years, hopefully in a bit larger of an apartment with the little bit of extra income (is he getting student loans? can he add some living expenses to them?) then you can re-evaluate, your child may be able to go to a regular school at that point, he will have more parnassa opportunities so you don't have to worry as much if you don't want to commute or move out of town and don't have as good a job, etc

(Tuition being more expensive out of town is not a rule at all. But it might depend on what type of schools you are comparing. The little bit extra in price of food doesn't compare to the much cheaper cost in living once you leave the NY metro area -- as long as you don't go to LA or something)

FranticFrummie

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 9:19 am

Make Aliyah! Very Happy

tryinghard

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 9:59 am

What kind of hashkafa are you looking for in a community?

OOT, kosher food is more, but tuition usually isn't. In some locations it is even more affordable. But all this is dependent on what kind of school/community you are looking for...

amother

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 10:55 am

Thanks for reading and responding. I'll try to answer all questions as much as I can:

Can DH work part time?
Yes. But the kinds of jobs available to students in his field (which is important to getting employed afterward) pay only very nominally if at all. It helps but definitely not enough to bridge the gap for a very expensive local home. Even worse because right now we qualify for medicaid and food stamps but right near the limit, his pittance of a salary would bump us off that without really helping us to meet expenses. But he needs to work anyway for his experience so we'll have to figure that one out somehow.

Option B meant exactly as you say - out of 5 boros but still nearby (or a different area within 5 boros). However I did consider this a couple of times and it seems that commuting from NJ would be about as expensive as renting locally; the rent in NJ is not lower enough to make it worth it as far as I can tell. In NY but farther from our current area I'm not sure whether it ends up worth it, but at least there aren't tolls, so it's closer to being a maybe.

How old are children? 2-5

Raisin, if I live in Israel but 2-4 hour trip from relatives, that isn't going to be very helpful in terms of support. Not at all like having nieces or aunts available to help out with the kids/home.

How much longer DH in school?/Wouldn't moving away from current location interrupt his schoolign?
As I said he is finishing his BS and applying to MS, so moving at this stage is a fine time to do it without any setbacks. If we did it earlier or later it would have been an issue but now he is about to transition anyway. If we move to Israel he would have to take some extra courses to transition but in the overall scheme of things not a huge deal. In any case, it is more than a year or two, and no we can't wait, we have waited MORE THAN long enough already and I wanted to be out of here already two years AGO.

@HY and others, to clarify about child with special needs: Child is fully mainstream and does not need a "special" school but also not "just any" school - the needs are mild/very high functioning, child is intelligent, verbal, sociable, but has certain difficulties with behavior and school participation, requires various therapies (counseling, OT, SEIT - supplementary special ed while still being in mainstream class 100%) So we need a normal school that is inclusive and supportive, with skilled teachers who will cooperate with therapists' suggestions for classroom support. Currently kiddo is in pre-k. I don't see that there are so many great options in NY, but it is true that at least here there are options whereas many places OOT if The School isn't working out you may be stuck. But I haven't noticed that our many options include schools that are well equipped to deal with a child like mine who is very bright and normal in many ways but needs a lot of help to integrate successfully. And maybe there may be schools like this in NY but closer to less expensive areas than our current place. I have heard that Israel has more for these kids but have not yet done enough research to confirm.

What kind of hashkafa are we looking for?
Open/mixed. This is one of the difficulties with staying in NY because due to the large population people tend to stick together with similar people and there are fewer open/mixed communities. We are right-wing in our observance, dress with high tznius standards, no movies, believe in somewhat but not fully sheltering kids from media/internet/books, basically our lifestyle is more like RW/somewhat yeshivish groups. However in actual hashkafah we are not yeshivish at all - more rationalist thinkers, open minded, not into extra chumras that weigh people down (while still keeping to highest standards of ACTUAL halacha - this is where it gets difficult; it seems many people choose between over the top or letting a lot go...) hate the attitudes that everyone needs to wear and do the same things all the time, not judgmental. We want to live in a community where we can be ourselves and we don't mind if others are different in any of these ways, which describes our current community somewhat (the school is a little more frummy than we'd prefer but the parent/student body is mixed so we fit right in and I guess when it comes to it we'll deal with when they teach things that are too much for us...) and as I understand it also describes many OOT communities and some in Israel as well, but very hard to find elsewhere in the NY-metro area. I find most places seem either too much of the chumra/monolithic/stressy/fit-the-mold/superficial/non-rationalist or on the other side you end up with more media exposure and halachic leniency than we want for our family. It's a hard niche but one that we feel very strongly is what we want for our family.

Hope that helps. Thanks again for any suggestions.

kollel wife

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 10:57 am

Can you move to any apartment at all - same size - and pay a similar rent?

Because the job/husband schooling/children schooling all point to the fact that you should stay where you are!!!

I'm assuming the personal reasons (neighbor,landlord) or whatever are really awful. Maybe there's a child predator downstairs!!!

But if you can keep the same rent and same size place just switch locations you have partly alleviated your problem without messing yourself up with the schooling, job, family nearby etc.

Is this doable or am I missing the boat?

amother

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 11:08 am

kollel wife wrote:

Not possible. Not because you're missing the boat, just because we are in a bit of a unique pickle. Our apartment is really really really impractical to live in (size and layout) even if it were in a better place. But even that is not really an option because the reason our apartment is so cheap (and if the OOT-ers here heard what I am calling cheap they would fall on the floor either from shock or laughter, not sure which) is mainly because our rent has been the same since we moved in while the area around us has only gone up. Plus it is hard to find anything at all, period - even the ridiculously expensive rentals are hard to come by, you need to watch and wait and pounce. And as you watch and wait the prices just keep going up. Sad

It would be convenient in many ways to stay local but I feel so shackled by the extremely high cost of living that I think it may be worth the move just for that.

Regarding the children schooling, while we are in what is considered a great school I am still not entirely confident that it's the best fit for my child's special needs. I am praying hard and going with reputation but it's our first year (pre-k) and I can't tell yet but I have my reservations. So it's not like all we need is to stay here and we have it made. It's a definite maybe though. And husband schooling as I said is wide open because he is applying to the next step now so he could apply anywhere. My job is good but if our expenses are so high that even my very good job isn't covering them, then what's the point?

kollel wife

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 12:27 pm

Got it.
I imagine you can't move without a job, right.

Would it make sense to explore job opportunities in specific communities.

Can you telecommute with your current job?

amother

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 12:32 pm

Absolutely no way to telecommute, but my qualifications are good enough that I should be able to find something just about anywhere, it just might not be as nice as my current setup, may or may not have part time/convenient hours opportunities, and probably pays significantly less elsewhere but that could be offset by the lower expenses but between those two variables it makes it very hard to figure out.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Feb 06 2015, 12:40 pm

I vote for making aliyah. Being distant from your relatives won't matter: you will be in the same country and you will make friends and have supportive relationships next door to yourself.

I think a bit of PMing of Frantic Frummie would be good.

I think you can get your financial life organized in Israel.

I think your kids will be ok in Israel also. You sound as if you really know who you are. This will keep your kids the way you want them, don't worry about that.

I am just intuiting.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Feb 09 2015, 12:06 pm

I thought of something else. You said you qualify for FS, but barely, which means you're probably not getting so much. If you kept everything as is, but moved into a slightly more expensive apartment in the same area, would your FS go up enough to make up the discrepancy in higher rent (meaning if you get $200/mo in FS and now you would get $450, the extra $250 could be applied to rent) -- I have no idea if it works this way or not, but it might be worth checking into, even if it makes you squeak by a little tighter?

amother

Mon, Feb 09 2015, 12:11 pm

I am not sure if FS works that way because the way they do their calculations is a complete mystery, but it still is not a viable option for us because there is NO "slightly higher apartment in our area." Staying local but moving to a different apartment means paying DOUBLE rent or probably more. That's just the real estate situation here. It evolved since we first moved in, besides for needing a bigger apt now (and I do mean needing. I am not high maintenance but there comes a time when your children are just physically too large for cribs and there is literally no room for a bed, and you have to move)