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Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe...
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 5:03 am
Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe in the Torah? Is it a secret or are you open about it with others? I am asking because I am just curious.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 5:37 am
I believe everything but just don't feel for it. I'll do it all but just because I have to for my DH and kids - sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't have gotten married when I did would I still be as frum as I am now. I believe in Hashem and all stuff I know He does for me but as for davening - its a real struggle to even want to. I push myself though and hope one day I'll have some more feeling - my DH knows I'm not so frum inside but don't think he realizes the extent of it. Some nights I lie in bed wishing I could just run away from it all...
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 6:12 am
I wouldn't exactly say I don't believe but I believe that half the things we believe in aren't exactly so.
But I don't mind not knowing. I still enjoy my lifestyle, my community and my family.
I have issues with creation. I value Torah, I value science as well. Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?
I would love to know what really happened "In the beginning".
Haven't davened in eons and that doesn't bother me but when the kids grow up a bit more I'd like to return to shul. I have no patience for davening at home. I rarely bench though I always make brachot over food before I eat.
While I believe I am a very moral person I am not a particularly spiritual person. I don't need to feel I am growing or learning.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 6:51 am
amother wrote:
I wouldn't exactly say I don't believe but I believe that half the things we believe in aren't exactly so.
But I don't mind not knowing. I still enjoy my lifestyle, my community and my family.
I have issues with creation. I value Torah, I value science as well. Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?
I would love to know what really happened "In the beginning".
Haven't davened in eons and that doesn't bother me but when the kids grow up a bit more I'd like to return to shul. I have no patience for davening at home. I rarely bench though I always make brachot over food before I eat.
While I believe I am a very moral person I am not a particularly spiritual person. I don't need to feel I am growing or learning.


There is a very easy explanation of this. At least, it is very obvious for me and anyone who is good at math and physics.
If you look at the history of the Earth and civilization, would you say it remains the same, or develops and evolves? It is obvious that it evolves. Now, if you try to show this process on a line, it couldn't be a straight line with no beginning and no end. In order for it to reflect the movement and evolvement, it needs to be a vector, I.e. a line that has a starting point and a direction. That means, there HAS been a starting point in the history of the world.
Now, just as we don't believe in G-d as an old grey man sitting in the clouds, we cannot imagine what that starting point was like. It might have been or might have appeared as a big bang (which doesn't matter as there were no witnesses), but we cannot really describe or picture Day 1 of creation either. It is something that is iimpossible for us to perceive, but the belief that there was a starting point is crucial here.

I try not to think about these things often (even though there are amazing shiurim about it), because it completely blows my mind with clarity and transparence of Yad Hashem.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 7:36 am
amother wrote:
Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?

I haven't heard this theory.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 8:11 am
DrMom wrote:
I haven't heard this theory.


http://phys.org/news/2015-02-b......html

In trying to resolve the questions of what happened before the single dense point that resulted in the big bang - how did the single dense point get there? - they are putting forth a theory that there never was a single dense point and the universe has simply been around forever. Which neatly sidesteps all the issues but it looks like they have a lot more proving to do.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 8:14 am
amother wrote:
I wouldn't exactly say I don't believe but I believe that half the things we believe in aren't exactly so.
But I don't mind not knowing. I still enjoy my lifestyle, my community and my family.
I have issues with creation. I value Torah, I value science as well. Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?
I would love to know what really happened "In the beginning".
Haven't davened in eons and that doesn't bother me but when the kids grow up a bit more I'd like to return to shul. I have no patience for davening at home. I rarely bench though I always make brachot over food before I eat.
While I believe I am a very moral person I am not a particularly spiritual person. I don't need to feel I am growing or learning.


So would everyone else, there's probably a nobel prize waiting for the physicist who can explain it...
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 8:17 am
amother wrote:
Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe in the Torah? Is it a secret or are you open about it with others? I am asking because I am just curious.


OP, what does believing in the Torah mean?
Belief that Hashem dictated every single letter of the Chumash as we now have it
--- and all of Torah she be'al peh as well?
--- and gave the essential elements of Torah she be'al peh, but there's some wiggle room in the latter?
--- and gave the general principles of interpretation, for humans to interpret?
--- with the understanding that humans could interpret it as they saw fit?

Belief that Hashem gave the entire Torah at Har Sinai / during the sojourn in the Midbar, but that parts of it were lost and restored by Ezra (so that what we have isn't exactly what was given to Moshe?)
(same possible variations as above)

Belief that Hashem gave the first 4 books of the Chumash, but that Moshe gave the 5th? (either with our without editing by Hashem?)

Belief that Hashem gave the parts where it says Vayidaber Hashem el Moshe laimor, but that other parts were cobbled together?

It's really impossible for people to answer your question without clarifying what belief in the Torah means.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 8:47 am
I have an issue with hair covering. I do it but I don't really believe in it. I also have a lot of trouble with tefilah. I'm great with brachos and really say them in a heartfelt way. I don't have patience for anything long.
I question G-d a lot in how He runs the world.
I'm much more of a believer then my DH.
He pretends to the outside world to be orthodox, but isn't. Sad
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 9:27 am
I'm not sure what I believe. I definitely don't believe in all the add-ons. As for the basics I'm still figuring it out. I know that we're my husband to somehow be out of the picture my and my children's lives would look drastically different.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 9:32 am
I want to believe. It's nothing particular about Torah that I'm struggling with. I am very fine with my frum life-style. But thinking about things like infinity, G-d having no beginning and no end, time and space not being a reality, etc. etc. etc. makes my head hurt. Thinking about what it will be like after 120 to just be a neshama and no physical being or attachment. Thinking about Mashiach. These things all overwhelm me so much that then I start to question everything and panic.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 9:54 am
amother wrote:
I wouldn't exactly say I don't believe but I believe that half the things we believe in aren't exactly so.
But I don't mind not knowing. I still enjoy my lifestyle, my community and my family.
I have issues with creation. I value Torah, I value science as well. Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?
I would love to know what really happened "In the beginning".


check out the book
Permission To Believe: Four Rational Approaches to God's Existence by Lawrence Kelemen (a teacher in Neve)
http://www.amazon.com/Permissi.....70558
He takes a scientific approach to explaining the creation of the world. It is fascinating. He explains how Einsteins theory of relativity proves the world had one beginning in that the world is constantly exploding and never implodes, meaning it needed a beginning. (if it didn't have a beginning then the world would be stagnant and not exploding). It also includes the discovery of the noise created by the initial big bang and how it all ties into the torah. He discusses the statistic of evolution from the original earth matter. (he doesn't include this in the book but when I heard him lecture on the torah he actually brought a rambam I believe and showed how the description of the creation of the world actually follows a lot of the big bang theories today).

His book was written in 1990, and he attended college studying evolution much earlier then that (he was majoring in science at the time and the issues with evolution is what pushed him to become frum, IIRC). I'm guessing the sceince has changed a lot since then so perhaps you can find some more recent lectures from him, he is fascinating to listen to, very entertaining.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 9:57 am
Me. I don't believe in any of it intellectually. I do have a strong emotional attachment to Judaism, so I do keep it for the most part, and I also don't want to hurt my family.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 10:00 am
sky wrote:
check out the book
Permission To Believe: Four Rational Approaches to God's Existence by Lawrence Kelemen (a teacher in Neve)
http://www.amazon.com/Permissi.....70558
He takes a scientific approach to explaining the creation of the world. It is fascinating. He explains how Einsteins theory of relativity proves the world had one beginning in that the world is constantly exploding and never implodes, meaning it needed a beginning. (if it didn't have a beginning then the world would be stagnant and not exploding). It also includes the discovery of the noise created by the initial big bang and how it all ties into the torah. He discusses the statistic of evolution from the original earth matter. (he doesn't include this in the book but when I heard him lecture on the torah he actually brought a rambam I believe and showed how the description of the creation of the world actually follows a lot of the big bang theories today).

His book was written in 1990, and he attended college studying evolution much earlier then that (he was majoring in science at the time and the issues with evolution is what pushed him to become frum, IIRC). I'm guessing the sceince has changed a lot since then so perhaps you can find some more recent lectures from him, he is fascinating to listen to, very entertaining.


I'm the amother that just posted above. I don't feel like getting into a theological argument right now, but any person with a serious science background will not be convinced by that book.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 12:01 pm
Personally, I don't believe in much. I've buried almost every member of my family by the time I turned thirty so for me - I need to believe that there is something more after we die but what that something is, I don't know.

Other than that, I raise my children in a frum school with shabbos, kosher, shul, tznius... I cover my hair, etc. mainly to instill in my children a deep sense of belonging, modesty of self and love for the best memories of growing up Jewish (like playing with lego on shabbos because that was allowed instead of watching TV or getting excited to speak about the parsha over the shabbos meal, etc. - to me, these were the best memories of growing up and I want my children to be rooted to the traditional, family aspects of Judaism.) Plus, tznius (for the most part) I happen to applaud because it teaches self worth instead of fostering a false sense of attraction, IMO (again, not to say that I agree with all forms of being tznius today because, let's face it, some wigs just look better than regular hair so it seems to defeat the purpose but I also fall into the category of women who KNOWS THIS but still wears an amazing sheital in spite of it...) We each struggle with how much, if any, we really believe in and continuity comes from deciding which aspects matter the most and reinforcing those in your personal life. For me, even though I don't believe, I want my children to feel connected to Judaism and starting out frum w/ a heavy emphasis on midos and family, is the best I know how to raise them... To each, his own.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Feb 13 2015, 4:52 pm
I want to believe. But after seeing some terrible tragedies, I cannot accept that "this is for the good". I get that g-d knows and we don't. But having young innocent children pass way, and saying that g-d is always good. That's a real struggle.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Feb 14 2015, 1:34 pm
amother wrote:
Me. I don't believe in any of it intellectually. I do have a strong emotional attachment to Judaism, so I do keep it for the most part, and I also don't want to hurt my family.



I believe in it intellectually (I have done a lot of questioning and philosophical study) but I have a problem emotionally connecting. For some reason people think one extreme is more dangerous than the other, but I disagree.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Feb 14 2015, 8:14 pm
amother wrote:
Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe in the Torah? Is it a secret or are you open about it with others? I am asking because I am just curious.


I don't believe. I am open about it with my family, but not outside it. Since this religion doesn't require belief, I am still frum.

I think most religions instill a value system and it is good for children to grow in a religious environment.

I see the rebbunim taking advantage and the cynic in me is appalled. I don't like the pressure put on good jews to do what is best for the Rabbis. There are parts of the Torah I believe in but not the interpretations of it.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Feb 14 2015, 8:23 pm
I believe in G-d, I believe in the Torah, I have a wonderful connection with Hashem, but I totally don't believe in the lifestyle I'm living. I'm chassidish and I think the Rabbanim in the community are corrupt, clueless, and conceited. I think the education system raises our boys to have no self esteem or healthy s-xuality and our girls to be subservient maids to their husbands. I don't believe in the way women (and everyone else) are controlled and in the way everything is taken to the extreme. I don't believe in the extreme aversion to anything secular or non jewish. I don't believe in denying our children an education both in the basics and on an advanced level.

But I still live my life here because I don't have the courage to leave and to be ostracized by my family.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Feb 14 2015, 9:10 pm
amother wrote:
I believe in G-d, I believe in the Torah, I have a wonderful connection with Hashem, but I totally don't believe in the lifestyle I'm living. I'm chassidish and I think the Rabbanim in the community are corrupt, clueless, and conceited. I think the education system raises our boys to have no self esteem or healthy s-xuality and our girls to be subservient maids to their husbands. I don't believe in the way women (and everyone else) are controlled and in the way everything is taken to the extreme. I don't believe in the extreme aversion to anything secular or non jewish. I don't believe in denying our children an education both in the basics and on an advanced level.

But I still live my life here because I don't have the courage to leave and to be ostracized by my family.


I could've written that, except the bolded.

Totally different issues than the OP raised, though.

Regarding secularism and education, I do believe in the value of insularity in childhood to lay a firm foundation of faith.

My problem with the system is the issues that result from misinformation, more than the lack of information. Anyone can find accurate information when necessary. It's undoing the damage wrought by the wrong information that's nearly impossible.
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