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-> Interesting Discussions
PinkFridge
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 Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:31 am
| BlueRose52 wrote: |
Don't bother giving any answers to these issues, I'm not interested in getting into it here, I'm just explaining that these issues are also areas of intellectual tension, but which have nothing to do with science. |
So I won't bring up the dimensions of the aron 
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:35 am
| perseverance613 wrote: | | You got it! No rabbinic leader has denounced validity of Torah! That is correct! |
What was the name of that kohein gadol? Don't trust yourself till the day of your death, or something like that?
I'm the last to tell you to stop persevering but I don't think this is going anywhere.
If I lived with a fraction of the doubts that some people here have, I don't know where I'd be. Once I believe in a Creator, and the truth of His Torah, I live with the tension and unanswered questions, with the belief that the questions do have answers, good ones at that, and one day, my non-omniscient mind will be privy to them.
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gp2.0
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:53 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | What was the name of that kohein gadol? Don't trust yourself till the day of your death, or something like that?
I'm the last to tell you to stop persevering but I don't think this is going anywhere.
If I lived with a fraction of the doubts that some people here have, I don't know where I'd be. Once I believe in a Creator, and the truth of His Torah, I live with the tension and unanswered questions, with the belief that the questions do have answers, good ones at that, and one day, my non-omniscient mind will be privy to them. |
I was going to mention the Cohen gadol, wasn't there also another rav who stopped believing, he rode a donkey on Shabbos, his talmid walked next to him, when they reached (40 tefuchim?) the rav told his talmid to turn back while he continued on...
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grace413
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:59 am
| gp2.0 wrote: | | I was going to mention the Cohen gadol, wasn't there also another rav who stopped believing, he rode a donkey on Shabbos, his talmid walked next to him, when they reached (40 tefuchim?) the rav told his talmid to turn back while he continued on... |
Elisha ben Avuya, also known as Acher. I believe the talmid was Rabbi Meir.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:00 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | | You got it! No rabbinic leader has denounced validity of Torah! That is correct! |
I'd be happy to start listing names, but I expect that you'd just pull a "no true scotsman" and claim that those aren't "real" rabbinic leaders, so there's no point.
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perseverance613
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:56 pm
| grace413 wrote: | | Elisha ben Avuya, also known as Acher. I believe the talmid was Rabbi Meir. |
Both Alisha ben Avuha and Kohen Gadol R Yochanan went OTD, but they did not claim that G-d does not exist or that Torah is not true. Alisha ben Avuha wanted to return even, but decided that he is too far gone. He turned out to be wrong.
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mille
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 2:54 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | | A creation by definition requires a creator. A creator does not require a creation. |
This is your belief, not an irrefutable fact.
| Quote: | | Truth is not always politically correct - sorry if it insults you. Wake up and smell the coffee. |
You have stated nothing that is "truth" in that it is absolute fact that no one can debate. Every point you brought up is a point of debate among people. I just wanted to point out that you were being rude, and you were not providing any good arguments towards orthoprax people... So you were JUST being rude, not rude and insightful.
Dial it back a notch.
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amother
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 3:24 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | | You got it! No rabbinic leader has denounced validity of Torah! That is correct! |
The Kotzker Rebbe (in)famously blew out the candles on shabbos by his tish and said "leis din v'leis dayen" = "there is no judgement and there is no judge." But these examples are beside the point.
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 3:41 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | You ladies are sad. Stop going with the flow. Statements like "I stopped caring long ago about what the rabbis say."
Who cares what the rabbis say? Think logically about it yourself:
1. Because something exists, a creator exists. Don't listen to bull$#!t atheist arguments - these guys are not intellectually honest with themselves. One of the most prominent atheists Anthony Flew was a leader and a "Rebbe" of atheists for his entire life. At the age of 81 he wrote an article that he was wrong and it is impossible for G-d not to exist. He was immediately shunned by atheists circles and all of his previous atheist accomplishments were denied. Atheism is a religion of fraud.
2. If any religion is true, yiddishkayt is it. No other religion claims a direct revelation of G-d to 2 million people. To fabricate such a claim would be impossible. Every other religion's revelation is to 1 or maximum two people. Basically other religions are bull$#!t for the gullible.
3. A cow is intellectually inferior to human. No matter how much it learns, it will not understand that surgery is good for it. A human is intellectually inferior to G-d: no matter how much we learn, we will never understand how tragedy could be justified. The limitation of our intellect does not prove or disprove a being with higher intellect than ours.
4. If G-d gave us mitzvos and a system to follow (Torah shebiksav and shebaalpe), it means it is good for us even when we don't understand how lighting shabbos candles makes any difference in the world.
5. The fact that majority of the "frum velt" are wrong should not affect us. Our religion is not about being the same as everyone else. As hard as it is, just ignore the social pressure to conform, and just do what you believe in.
We came to associate our religion with what everyone else in our community does. Guess what? The majority if very often wrong. Just do the right things, instill the right values in your children and live a happy life. No need to stress out about keeping up with the Johnsons spiritually or materialistically. Very often their level is just a show. G-d is the only one who knows the real value of our mitzvos. |
1. I think your comments on atheism are uncalled for and irrelevant. I'm not sure who on this thread was advocating for atheism. Anyway, your attacks simply demonstrate your under-education on this topic. The watchmaker analogy which you offer here has been criticized in quite a few valid ways. For example, if I drop a cup and it breaks, you could argue that I am the creator of that mess, or you could legitimately argue that I did not create it intentionally, the laws of gravity instead led to the mess. You can disagree with the argument, but it doesn't make it fraudulent.
2. The Kuzari proof is so easily discredited. First, quite a few other religions claim mass visions or revelations. Second, it is so easy to fool people into believing they or their ancestors saw something when they didn't. History is replete with accounts of such charlatans.
3. We can understand some concept and still be inferior to its originator. For example, just because we understand the theory of relativity does not make us Einstein. There's really no reason, therefore, for God to play these games and hide His explanations from us.
4. Lol. Circular reasoning. But as an aside, why would you think God would give the absolute truth, the best way to live your life, to such a tiny tiny percentage of the world's population? And then everyone else is just practicing, as you called it nonsense? How is that remotely just? And don't you think that pretty much every single belief system thinks the rest are incorrect? How are you different from them?
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 3:53 pm
| Quote: | | Two million witnesses passed down their testimony to their children, who in turn passed it on to their children. No other religion can claim this. They are all based on a single person's testimony. How do you know your grandparent's birth certificate is not a fake! Because of their testimony. |
Or maybe two million people didn't see anything. And a very charismatic leader convinced a group of nomads that (1) their ancestors received the word of God; (2) God chose him to be their leader; and (3) if they don't obey the laws he sets forth, they will be killed.
And my grandparents' birth certificate could certainly be a fake, because they could be lying, be confused, have received a fake birth certificate from someone else, or a million other reasons.
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perseverance613
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:03 pm
| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | Two million witnesses passed down their testimony to their children, who in turn passed it on to their children. No other religion can claim this. They are all based on a single person's testimony. How do you know your grandparent's birth certificate is not a fake! Because of their testimony. |
Or maybe two million people didn't see anything. And a very charismatic leader convinced a group of nomads that (1) their ancestors received the word of God; (2) God chose him to be their leader; and (3) if they don't obey the laws he sets forth, they will be killed.
And my grandparents' birth certificate could certainly be a fake, because they could be lying, be confused, have received a fake birth certificate from someone else, or a million other reasons. |
Or the world could be floating on a giant turtle standing on 3 elephants. Time to come out of your ignorance.
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perseverance613
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:05 pm
| marina wrote: | | Quote: | | Two million witnesses passed down their testimony to their children, who in turn passed it on to their children. No other religion can claim this. They are all based on a single person's testimony. How do you know your grandparent's birth certificate is not a fake! Because of their testimony. |
Or maybe two million people didn't see anything. And a very charismatic leader convinced a group of nomads that (1) their ancestors received the word of God; (2) God chose him to be their leader; and (3) if they don't obey the laws he sets forth, they will be killed.
And my grandparents' birth certificate could certainly be a fake, because they could be lying, be confused, have received a fake birth certificate from someone else, or a million other reasons. |
Certainly a mention of such a leader would be recorded somewhere other than this forum. Anybody has seen any mention of such a leader? Perhaps Ezra? Oh wait, there were Jews in another community with the same exact set of mesorah who did not see Ezra ever in their life.
Marina, please educate yourself. Ignorance is not an excuse.
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:06 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | | Or the world could be floating on a giant turtle standing on 3 elephants. Time to come out of your ignorance. |
Wow. That was such a brilliant argument, I have nothing in response. You have totally convinced me and all the other apikorsim of the Truth. Kol Hakavod!
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amother
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:08 pm
| amother wrote: | | I believe everything but just don't feel for it. I'll do it all but just because I have to for my DH and kids - sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't have gotten married when I did would I still be as frum as I am now. I believe in Hashem and all stuff I know He does for me but as for davening - its a real struggle to even want to. I push myself though and hope one day I'll have some more feeling - my DH knows I'm not so frum inside but don't think he realizes the extent of it. Some nights I lie in bed wishing I could just run away from it all... |
This post resonates with me. I'm happy I did marry when I did and I'm happy that I'm "frum" but I want to genuinely feel like doing things the way I used to. I can almost never get myself to daven either. I just have a hard time with what I feel like is such nitty gritty halachah. What's hard for me is that very modern lifestyle that seems to surround me with much of my family members, co-workers, and community of people who aren't so "serious." People who are shomer shabbos but don't keep a lot of more minor halachas and/or certain things like hair covering, pants. I'm not judging those people, some of them are good friends to me. I'm just saying that I'm jealous of them sometimes and I do stuff that's not in keeping with halachah that people wouldn't suspect me of - like not washing and bentching. Not b/c I don't believe it, just that I find it hard to do. I've spoken to DH about it, but he doesn't know about my little wrongdoings. I really worry about my children. I don't want them to know about this side of me. I wasn't like this several years ago.
I'm VERY open to suggestions of how to be more inspired and attached to it all!!
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perseverance613
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:10 pm
| marina wrote: | | 1. I think your comments on atheism are uncalled for and irrelevant. I'm not sure who on this thread was advocating for atheism. Anyway, your attacks simply demonstrate your under-education on this topic. The watchmaker analogy which you offer here has been criticized in quite a few valid ways. For example, if I drop a cup and it breaks, you could argue that I am the creator of that mess, or you could legitimately argue that I did not create it intentionally, the laws of gravity instead led to the mess. You can disagree with the argument, but it doesn't make it fraudulent. |
And since when do you decide what is relevant and what is not? How is your cup example relevant? Time to get educated, lady.
| marina wrote: | | 2. The Kuzari proof is so easily discredited. First, quite a few other religions claim mass visions or revelations. Second, it is so easy to fool people into believing they or their ancestors saw something when they didn't. History is replete with accounts of such charlatans. |
Name one such religion? Stop making baseless claims. Ignorance is not an excuse.
| marina wrote: | | 3. We can understand some concept and still be inferior to its originator. For example, just because we understand the theory of relativity does not make us Einstein. There's really no reason, therefore, for God to play these games and hide His explanations from us. |
And just because its a cow, there is no reason a cow can't understand molecular biology?
| marina wrote: | | 4. Lol. Circular reasoning. But as an aside, why would you think God would give the absolute truth, the best way to live your life, to such a tiny tiny percentage of the world's population? And then everyone else is just practicing, as you called it b.s.? How is that remotely just? And don't you think that pretty much every single belief system thinks the rest are incorrect? How are you different from them? |
Yep. We have the truth. They do not. Just because they are more numerous than us does not make them right.
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:11 pm
| perseverance613 wrote: | Certainly a mention of such a leader would be recorded somewhere other than this forum. Anybody has seen any mention of such a leader? Perhaps Ezra? Oh wait, there were Jews in another community with the same exact set of mesorah who did not see Ezra ever in their life.
Marina, please educate yourself. Ignorance is not an excuse. |
What? Have you not heard of Moshe? Why is it implausible that he made everything up? A group of nomads were in the desert, Moshe wanted to be their leader. He convinced them that many years ago, their ancestors received the ten commandments (and died after hearing 2 of them lol) and then God taught him everything else individually and if they don't obey, lol, they need to die. By stoning or whatever.
It's so implausible that those people would obey and convince themselves that it is true and pass it down to their kids? Lol, people convince themselves of much more implausible short term things.
I recommend you not read this thread, perseverance. You might come to learn things you didn't want to hear.
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perseverance613
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:14 pm
| marina wrote: | What? Have you not heard of Moshe? Why is it implausible that he made everything up? A group of nomads were in the desert, Moshe wanted to be their leader. He convinced them that many years ago, their ancestors received the ten commandments (and died after hearing 2 of them lol) and then God taught him everything else individually and if they don't obey, lol, they need to die. By stoning or whatever.
It's so implausible that those people would obey and convince themselves that it is true and pass it down to their kids? Lol, people convince themselves of much more implausible short term things.
I recommend you not read this thread, perseverance. You might come to learn things you didn't want to hear. |
You must be confused. Children of Jews who saw revelation at Sinai were in the desert. One man convinced two million people that their parents saw G-d but did not tell them about it? Have you read the Torah at all?
Jews did not die after hearing two commandments. They died of old age in the desert.
Stop being ignorant! Go read the truth and stop writing baseless nonsense.
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Yael
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:27 pm
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I think this thread has gone far enough. Imamother is not the right place to get answers to questions of emunah.
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